IkarusJohn Posted April 4, 2017 Share #401 Posted April 4, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) All I have to say is this... Lets just say...you are worth 3 million $$..and you have 2 million to invest in a company for profit...and keep 1 million for yourself.. So what do you do loyal Leica afficianados..what do you do...with your hard earned 2 mil?... Do you invest it in Leica stocks..specifically ..the M cam division... Think about that for a min.. I'll tell you what I would do...not one red penny..would get near Leica and Co.. For obvious reasons.. Ask Andreas Kaufmann or the private equity investors from Blackstone. I suspect they're getting a very good return on their investment ... for obvious reasons. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 4, 2017 Posted April 4, 2017 Hi IkarusJohn, Take a look here So how long before video capture functionality arrives?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
pgk Posted April 4, 2017 Share #402 Posted April 4, 2017 All I have to say is this... Lets just say...you are worth 3 million $$..and you have 2 million to invest in a company for profit...and keep 1 million for yourself.. So what do you do loyal Leica afficianados..what do you do...with your hard earned 2 mil?... Do you invest it in Leica stocks..specifically ..the M cam division... Think about that for a min.. I'll tell you what I would do...not one red penny..would get near Leica and Co.. For obvious reasons.. I have to agree in that, given such (an unlikely) scenario, I can think of innumerable things to do with such an amount of money which would serve far better purposes than investing it in Leica who seem to be doing ok as it is. I'd probably buy myself a monochrome but I'm satisfied with the gear I have on the whole . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted April 4, 2017 Share #403 Posted April 4, 2017 I have to agree in that, given such (an unlikely) scenario, I can think of innumerable things to do with such an amount of money which would serve far better purposes than investing it in Leica who seem to be doing ok as it is. I'd probably buy myself a monochrome but I'm satisfied with the gear I have on the whole . But in buying a monochrome, you would technically be investing in Leica. Just not in the sense of the hypothetical. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted April 4, 2017 Share #404 Posted April 4, 2017 But in buying a monochrome, you would technically be investing in Leica. Just not in the sense of the hypothetical. Isn't that actually the best way . And there is a big difference 'technically' between buying a business's product and invsting in their shares (were we able to do so). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surge Posted April 4, 2017 Share #405 Posted April 4, 2017 Wow... so much time spent (wasted?) on this discussion! As an M240 owner, with an M10 on order, and a former M6 owner, I firmly believe we will NEVER see video in an M again. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the video feature in the M240. But only because it makes no sense and it's a neat anomaly. It's why I'm keeping my M240 - I'm sure it will become a collectors' item: the only video M! The only M without a number after it. For those who think video should be included. You're wrong. It's just not what the M is about. Don't be mislead by the fact that Leica has it in the M240. The essence of the problem with video in the the M is that to do it right, it takes a lot of effort and big hardware and software changes. These changes would take the M too far from its raison d'etre. It was in the 240 because there was no decent video Leica body at the time. And I think because Leica wanted to test the waters. Well almost everyone trashed it, so now there's zero reason for Leica to bring it back. Especially when you can buy another body and get it in the SL. Can we all move on and just take photos? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted April 4, 2017 Share #406 Posted April 4, 2017 No. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmahto Posted April 4, 2017 Share #407 Posted April 4, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) .... Can we all move on and just take photos? Why would you want to do that? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsleica Posted April 5, 2017 Share #408 Posted April 5, 2017 "No intelligent investor would invest two-thirds of their net worth in any single company, particularly a privately held company with no liquidity for the asset. Your post is essentially meaningless." 1%...2%...25%...50%...65% investment..or buy a few bodies and lenses..doesn't matter.. Leica M is not a venue where the $$ are or are going to be growing imo...maybe now they are doing ok for a hot min..but in order to keep on..a business needs to be adaptable..and evolve..or it eventually stagnates and dies... Leica is catering to such a small market..for pared down expensive retro cams.. When the M photo market takes even a small hit..or completely dries up to levels unsustainable ...as it eventually will..that's the end.. It almost happened a few years ago..to Leica.. As in.. You have 7K bodies...long repair & return times..cell phones taking over photography..Nikon half in the grave... It's not a big stretch here.. The writing is on the wall.. Not that video is going to solve this problem either..but a more intelligently designed versatile M..would definitely attract customers.. if priced right that is..and not have them moving away..to Sony..and others.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted April 5, 2017 Share #409 Posted April 5, 2017 I'm pretty sure the intelligently-designed M10 is having no problem attracting customers. There will always be those who can afford luxury priced items. Any business can fold during bad times or with poor management or increased competition. But I don't see any particular writing on the wall for Leica at the moment. They seem to be doing quite well right now, showing steady growth the last five years and record sales in 2015/2016. Your analysis is pretty speculative and weak compared to the hard numbers of how they are actually doing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted April 5, 2017 Share #410 Posted April 5, 2017 "No intelligent investor would invest two-thirds of their net worth in any single company, particularly a privately held company with no liquidity for the asset. Your post is essentially meaningless." 1%...2%...25%...50%...65% investment..or buy a few bodies and lenses..doesn't matter.. Leica M is not a venue where the $$ are or are going to be growing imo...maybe now they are doing ok for a hot min..but in order to keep on..a business needs to be adaptable..and evolve..or it eventually stagnates and dies... Leica is catering to such a small market..for pared down expensive retro cams.. When the M photo market takes even a small hit..or completely dries up to levels unsustainable ...as it eventually will..that's the end.. It almost happened a few years ago..to Leica.. As in.. You have 7K bodies...long repair & return times..cell phones taking over photography..Nikon half in the grave... It's not a big stretch here.. The writing is on the wall.. Not that video is going to solve this problem either..but a more intelligently designed versatile M..would definitely attract customers.. if priced right that is..and not have them moving away..to Sony..and others.. What an odd post. Do you live under a bridge? In 1953, Leica offered one version of its new M camera, the M3. It continued the Leica III for a while but the M was its future. That expanded to M variants - M2, M-D and others. During the film era, however, Leica largely just offered whatever was the latest flavour of the M camera. The M5 was a hiccup, which followed with re-introduced versions of the M4, then the M6 in all its different versions. Despite the (relative) success of the M6, Leica was, as you say, in trouble. It was probably in trouble for the latter part of the 1960s as well, when the Nikon F and other Japanese SLRs dominated the market, and the Leicaflex failed to capture any significant market share - it and the subsequent R series cameras failed to save the company. Now, Leica has solvent and apparently committed investors, and they offer the S, SL, M (in 9 different versions, not counting the a la carte programme), Q, TL, X & X-U. They are also opening Leica Boutiques in wealthy parts of the world, and sales seem to be booming. And you're saying "the writing is on the wall". Hmm, I'll never get back the 10 minutes I wasted reading and responding to your post, for which I have only myself to blame. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted April 5, 2017 Share #411 Posted April 5, 2017 Leica M is not a venue where the $$ are or are going to be growing imo...maybe now they are doing ok for a hot min..but in order to keep on..a business needs to be adaptable..and evolve..or it eventually stagnates and dies... Leica M is only one part of Leica's product line-up. At the moment Leica have not only diversified but are one of the most innovative manufacturers currently producing cameras and lenses - perhaps Sony is a close second, but most of the others are more focussed on lesser diverse product lines. Not that diversity in itself will ensure that they survive. Kodak was a huge and 'solid' company and had numerous, diverse products, but poor management decisions has resulted in disaster. Leica's management could so easily make similarly poor decisions if they listened to this forum without filtering through the chaff . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surge Posted April 5, 2017 Share #412 Posted April 5, 2017 What an odd post. Do you live under a bridge? In 1953, Leica offered one version of its new M camera, the M3. It continued the Leica III for a while but the M was its future. That expanded to M variants - M2, M-D and others. During the film era, however, Leica largely just offered whatever was the latest flavour of the M camera. The M5 was a hiccup, which followed with re-introduced versions of the M4, then the M6 in all its different versions. Despite the (relative) success of the M6, Leica was, as you say, in trouble. It was probably in trouble for the latter part of the 1960s as well, when the Nikon F and other Japanese SLRs dominated the market, and the Leicaflex failed to capture any significant market share - it and the subsequent R series cameras failed to save the company. Now, Leica has solvent and apparently committed investors, and they offer the S, SL, M (in 9 different versions, not counting the a la carte programme), Q, TL, X & X-U. They are also opening Leica Boutiques in wealthy parts of the world, and sales seem to be booming. And you're saying "the writing is on the wall". Hmm, I'll never get back the 10 minutes I wasted reading and responding to your post, for which I have only myself to blame. Indeed, well put! Thanks for saving me the time, and replying so eloquently. Leica is thriving, and as long as they continue to do what they're doing, I don't see that changing. M pricing is high, but reasonable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsleica Posted April 5, 2017 Share #413 Posted April 5, 2017 I hope Leica succeeds..I truly do... I've been using their products since 1988..and continue to do so.. I know in the micro view..the M10 is the right stuff..for a certain group of folks.. But the real question is..how many long time customers..have they alienated for good.. because of their lack of real development..other than an iso dial that turns in the corner of the cam...and other minor bones of improvement..they toss at their M customers every few years.. But for people to get so offended by this pov..vs their own ..is interesting to say the least..as in..who really cares what another person thinks or feels about this issue.. If you are happy with the way Leica is going..then you plunk your $$ down and wait months for your cam..and take it from there.. If you don't like the way Leica is going..then you move on..like many have... I don't know if the M will be a viable product in 5 to 10 years..maybe it will ..and maybe it wont.. I really don't care anymore...Leica lost me there..too expensive..to many issues...from availability to repairs.. Digital camera sales across the board..are in freefall now..I don't see this improving soon if ever..even if Leica is for the moment..cashing in on their current offering.. Photography is changing..Leica is not.. We will see what happens.. Its not 1980 anymore.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted April 5, 2017 Share #414 Posted April 5, 2017 Its not 1980 anymore.. Indeed - then the M4-2 was in production and this camera is generally accepted as having saved the Leica M range. M cameras are better now than they were then (well many think so) and I see absolutely no reason why they should not carry on as superb image making machines for a long time to come. Technology changes but we don't. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cp995 Posted April 5, 2017 Share #415 Posted April 5, 2017 ...Photography is changing..Leica is not.... Yes Photografy is changing ... to Smartphoes. Every other stuff/manufactorer goes to high end products. Others will leave the competition sooner or later. That's the future, for sure! And Leica is very well positioned with a broad line of products for every taste. Also modern kameras with real videofunktion etc. like the SL; don't forget ... The M is a special niche which is seperated very well from the SL. So don't worry ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted April 5, 2017 Share #416 Posted April 5, 2017 But the real question is..how many long time customers..have they alienated for good.. because of their lack of real development ... Digital camera sales across the board..are in freefall now..I don't see this improving soon if ever ... Photography is changing..Leica is not.. We will see what happens.. Its not 1980 anymore.. So you're concern that Leica could be headed to failure seems to be based on the idea that they are alienating long time users due to lack of development and that digital camera sales in general are in free fall. For the first point, I don't see a lot of evidence for that. Sure, they may alienate a few every year. But they also seem to be bringing in new users. How else would they have record growth and sales the last few years? The M9 was my first Leica, and I've got an order in for an M10. I shot film for 25 years, but had never used Leica before the M9. As for lack of development, compare the specs, features, and capabilities between the M8 and M10 and then tell me with a straight face they aren't developing the camera. Perhaps they aren't developing it as fast as you want, but the demand for the M10 speaks for itself. Many are quite pleased with the development of this line. As for declining digital camera sales, I think Leica is somewhat immune from that trend as they occupy a fairly narrow niche. Smartphones have killed the point-and-shoot market and digital SLR's have achieved a certain amount of market saturation. But Leica has a diverse product line aimed at a certain type of consumer that doesn't seem to be suffering from these trends. I just really don't see any facts that support your doom and gloom outlook. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted April 5, 2017 Share #417 Posted April 5, 2017 Photography hasn't changed in a hundred years. Cameras have. No big deal. Every nickel dime business expert in the world has an opinion on Leica. They just keep rolling along just fine. And.......as it is a private company what they do internally is nobody's business but there own. If they have something to sell buy it or don't. There is always Sony. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsleica Posted April 5, 2017 Share #418 Posted April 5, 2017 Like I said..they/Leica may make it with the M into the future..or they might not...time will tell...no one really knows the answer here.. One thing I have noticed though..is the M10 buzz....there really isn't much there online these days.. and only after a few weeks since it was released..maybe because..in the end..its just another cam...and people are happy with that.. But.. Just maybe... the M10 really is... the best cam that they have come up with so far in digital..and it just is what it is and now ... next case..just take pics..with your M10..and enjoy it! Kinda like the M3 or M6..just simple cams that work well..no need to say more on the matter.. I guess if they find or convince enough people to keep buying year after year..then they will be ok.. But I'm not convinced that this is a forgone conclusion..as the economy is not gurranteed to hold up..and there may be another entry into the rangefinder market eventually..and pose some competition for them..hasn't happened yet..but I'm sure there are people out there that have thought about it.. Leica has been lucky for awhile now..real lucky...lol... Its actually kinda amazing..that they keep on the way they have..they didnt convince me to jump this time ..but if they don't wait another 5 years for some interesting growth..who knows.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted April 5, 2017 Share #419 Posted April 5, 2017 Meanwhile, back in the real world, Leica keeps making (and apparently selling) cameras. I'm more than a bit bemused by comments about "lack of development" in the M camera. To take a stills picture (it is a stills camera, right?), the fundamentals of sensitivity of the medium (ISO), aperture and shutter speed have remained unchanged since the days of Henry Fox-Talbot and Daguerre. What more do you want? The lenses have got better and better, the rangefinder better ... there's not much left, really. I don't know how the M10 can be improved, within the constraints of the coupled rangefinder mechanism. There is a potential gap most here are curious about - an M mount, EVF based camera - but the SL does this so well already, you'd have to ask what is the point? If video is to return to the M series, I'd suggest that will only happen with an EVF based version, and that would bear little resemblance to the M10 - it would need microphones and all the plugs and connections for external recorders and mikes. It could be an interesting camera; a non-AF version of the SL. Most handheld, available light photography (for which the M is the appropriate vehicle) is taken between 28mm & 90mm, and most of the time the M10 rangefinder is just fine. Leica has been making incremental improvements to the camera since 1953 - why stop now? I don't see photography in freefall, and I certainly don't see another camera maker coming into the rangefinder market to compete with the M camera - the barriers to entry are too high. Mirrorless is where the competition will come from, and the SL has a huge head start (development was started in 2012!). More photos are being taken now than ever before, and over 90% of them on smart phones. For camera makers, the future rests at the top end - Canon mk5, Nikon D810 and Leica's TL, Q, M, SL and S, Hassy X1D and the like. Not much hope left in the middle, I don't think. The beauty of the M series is its total focus on the essentials of stills photography - for that, it's the only game in town. Adding video was a mistake, which Leica has rectified. Adding decent video is something else altogether. I doubt Leica will do it, but they do have a habit of surprising. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsleica Posted April 6, 2017 Share #420 Posted April 6, 2017 I'm more than a bit bemused by comments about "lack of development" in the M camera. To take a stills picture (it is a stills camera, right?), Me thinks..its is a stills...computer... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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