Leica SL terrible low light performance.

[earleygallery]

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The SL is a full frame T.

 

I wouldn't choose a T to photograph a wedding or event where I was the paid photographer.

 

To be fair the blame here is on the OP for choosing the wrong equipment for his job. For less critical work I'm sure the SL is fine.

[LD_50]

The critique here should be on the SL for not performing well in a common application for professional use. The standard 24-70, 70-200 zooms from Nikon and Canon work very well for this type of shooting. The SL should as well and hopefully the second revision will.

[steppenw0lf]

I have Canikon as well as the SL. So I am in a way amused that this is now a search for the culprit.

This is quite useless - the "best" choice depends on personal preferences.

For example it is quite natural to use a Noctilux for this situation. It is also quite natural to use a small flash bouncing off the ceiling for these cases. But this is only an option - not the "de facto standard". There is no optimal way in existance.

So better not discuss in categories (DSLR vs mirrorless, AF vs manual focus, etc.). This leads nowhere.

Buy a second system (of the opposite type than what you typically use) and you will also find it much more interesting to explore how to make the best of each, than which is "superior" to the other.

 

And regarding AF on the SL and tracking AF. The "behavior" is different than on a Canon or Nikon. Even the names do not have the same meaning. The AF electronics are from Panasonic, so is the software and the algorithms, and they are working differently.

E.g. using an SL lens in manual mode means actually that you use a sort of "back button AF" setup. And it is the only way (afaik) to activate it. So it is not simply the sort of "manual focus" you expect when you have only used Canikon systems.

 

So try the systems first, before you define the culprit. They all have their merits - no need to discuss that away.

[phongph]

Hi!

I think SL 601 itself is not the issue of low light, It may be from the small aperture of len f2.8 - 4.0.

I also have the issue with SL 24-90/ f2.8 -4.0 ASPH in low light, then I get M Apo 50 f2. So, I am quite happy with this len f2 in low light with SL 601.

We can try Nocti 50 f0.95 or We may wait SL Lux 50 1.4 or SL Summicron Apo 75 f2 or Apo 90 f2 next year that I hope they will be so much better in low light with SL 601.

Have a nice day!

Thanks!

[wattsy]

I have shot up to about 20 weddings and various events, those in the last year with a nikon D750.

 

I must have lost all my experience when I sold the nikon...

 

The nikon never gave me issue, and I've used it in poorer conditions.

 

 

Why did you sell a camera that does the job you want to do and buy a camera that doesn't? Hoping for a firmware fix (from Leica of all companies  ) to provide a solution seems desperately optimistic. Presumably you still have other capable cameras that you have for back-up duty or did you buy two SL bodies?

 

Jeff S's oft repeated advice here to thoroughly test out new camera systems before buying seems very apposite here. A bit late now for you but other UK based photographers may like to know that both the Pro Centre and Fixation in London have the SL available for rental. £95 per day for the body and £22 for the zoom is a much cheaper way of finding out if the camera can or can't do the job you want it to.

[dancook]

Why did you sell a camera that does the job you want to do and buy a camera that doesn't? Hoping for a firmware fix (from Leica of all companies ) to provide a solution seems desperately optimistic. Presumably you still have other capable cameras that you have for back-up duty or did you buy two SL bodies?

 

Jeff S's oft repeated advice here to thoroughly test out new camera systems before buying seems very apposite here. A bit late now for you but other UK based photographers may like to know that both the Pro Centre and Fixation in London have the SL available for rental. £95 per day for the body and £22 for the zoom is a much cheaper way of finding out if the camera can or can't do the job you want it to.

My personal choices for pleasure come before my semi professional photography work.

 

As frustrating as it was, and I was actively trying everything I could to reliably focus on a single person in the same position that night.

I just thought now why I can focus on people further away more quickly. The hunt has a lot less travel and features are smaller so more changes in contrast over the focus point. So it's not like it can't focus in low light, I think I just got something the camera struggled with and I wouldn't let it go.

 

I will get a wide aperture 50mm for low light use, although 90-280 still probably needed for speeches as rarely can move closer.

 

Now I have calmed down I believe I will manage just fine.

 

I use the leica Q as my other body, have used that at weddings for last year alongside nikon D750 with 85mm

[dancook]

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I've also just thought more about the whole brighter background thing.

 

Even though spot focussing on the face didn't work well. The average metering will make the face darker and make it harder to focus. If I used spot metering, assuming it's centre only, and recomposed maybe the camera would have brightened the scene more when it tried to focus.

[steppenw0lf]

No need to recompose.

Just as you can choose any place to put your AF point, you can select any area for spot metering. I do that dozens of times any day, because I often use adapted lenses.

 

AF in low contrast: If I want to catch a subject that is not offering enough contrast I try to find a substitute with more contrast at equal distance. Of course this is easier when doing landscape than at a party. Sometimes there is a lamp at equal distance or some sort of decoration.

 

Use back button AF (press joystick) on a substitute object, Get the focus. Then target your object, compose. Use manual focus corrections if necessary (usually only slight corrections). Done. Use it for several shots or wait for the best moment. 

 

Not useful in this case here, but sometimes in the dark: DoF meter.

There is another way for static objects. Use the display next to the shutter button. With SL lenses It displays the DoF for your current focus. (e.g. FRONT 1.0m  FOCUS  2.3m  BACK 5.0m). This way you can choose a distance range - for example to get an object at infinity at night (finding the hyperfocal distance). (see page 285 in the manual)

[ImmerDraussen]

I compared the 1Dx with the 2,8/70-200ii against the SL with the 90-280. Exposure time was 1/10sec @ ISO 25k. (Aperture wide open). AF light off. As long as there are structures both focus, but the Canon is faster (black letters on a white ground). Things become worse if you try to focus white letters on black ground. Canon still finds a target while the SL fails more often. Down side with the Canon is that you have no idea what exactly the Canon has hit.

 

The best way with the SL for me is:

 

Manual focus

Exposure set to + 1 or 2 (AF performance is increasing significantly)

Start AF with the joystick

Adjust the exposure based on the histogramm.

 

This is still fast and the difference to the Canon melts away and you have a better control.

I haven't tried how the jpeg settings influence the performance.

The new Summilux performs much better under these conditions

[dancook]

Thank immerdraussen, some nice ideas for improving af performance.

 

And thanks steppenw0lf I did not know the spot metering was tidied to af point

[LocalHero1953]

I also use spot metering for people, as well as single point focus, though it requires a bit of exposure compensation (+1or2) for causasian skins.

[dancook]

I compared the 1Dx with the 2,8/70-200ii against the SL with the 90-280. Exposure time was 1/10sec @ ISO 25k. (Aperture wide open). AF light off. As long as there are structures both focus, but the Canon is faster (black letters on a white ground). Things become worse if you try to focus white letters on black ground. Canon still finds a target while the SL fails more often. Down side with the Canon is that you have no idea what exactly the Canon has hit.

 

The best way with the SL for me is:

 

Manual focus

Exposure set to + 1 or 2 (AF performance is increasing significantly)

Start AF with the joystick

Adjust the exposure based on the histogramm.

 

This is still fast and the difference to the Canon melts away and you have a better control.

I haven't tried how the jpeg settings influence the performance.

The new Summilux performs much better under these conditions

 

I believe this is the answer to the thread

 

I just tested it, I simulated a slightly under exposed subject through settings alone and the autofocus was poor. I increased the exposure compensation and the AF was good.

 

When I was shooting the gentleman at the office party, the background was bright, with evaluative metering of the whole scene he would likely have been under exposed and the AF poor.

 

To avoid this I should increase exposure compensation to maintain good AF.

[dancook]

Just to re-iterate - the example at the office party,

 

The room wasn't that poorly lit - which was one of the catalysts for my frustration. I called it low light, but really it was nothing like end of the night disco lights only, "low light".

The background to the subject was better lit than the subject, metering evaluated the entire scene, therefore the average left the subject underexposed.

 

The AF is poor on underexposed subjects..

 

I just tested this on louise, spot metering with single point AF

 

-2 EV comp - Did not manage focus

-1 EV comp - 50/50 with hunting

0 EV comp - Good hit rate

 

 

This is the answer to the Leica SL and it's poor low light AF - increase exposure level on subject!

[dancook]

Thanks to everyone for pitching in their ideas  

[FlashGordonPhotography]

The SL is a full frame T.

 

I wouldn't choose a T to photograph a wedding or event where I was the paid photographer.

 

To be fair the blame here is on the OP for choosing the wrong equipment for his job. For less critical work I'm sure the SL is fine.

 

No it isn't. That's the same as saying a 5D mk IV is a full frame EOS 1300D. Sharing a lens mount doesn't make them the same.

 

Nor is it the OP's fault. More than one working photographer is using the SL to shoot weddings with great success. What Dan wants to know is why it's not working for him when it apparently works for others. Or at least, that's how I read it.

 

The reality is that the SL, and all mirrorless for that matter, requires some adjustment to shooting techniques in order to achieve the highest hit rate possible in lower light environments. These aren't necessarily deficiencies. It's just another set of skills that a photographer learns as they add new equipment to a shooting workflow. Also, for every situation where you might need to work a bit harder to get the shot compared to another camera there will be one where it is easier. Especially when shooting in a dynamic environment like a wedding.

 

Generally when I see the "wrong equipment for the job" ( I'd like to say I don't see this in Dan's comments) comments what I see is that there is another photographer what hasn't learned how to get the shot and is blaming it on the gear. People expect to be able to track a flea on the arse of a leaping gazelle at midnight without any skill development at all. And when one frame out of the 600 in their buffer doesn't work it's the "wrong gear". I shot BMX with my SL last week. 10 minutes of crap followed by some technique adjustment and 300 shots delivered to the client. You show me a guy who *needs* a D5 to shoot a wedding and I'll show you a guy who doesn't know what they're doing.

 

I'm as lazy as the next guy and I don't need my job to be any harder than it needs to be. However I really think that in some ways, cameras are killing photography. Photojournalism is dead because any monkey can hold an EOS1Dx and shoot endless frames at 15fps. Cherry picking the expression you want out of iphone video footage and cropping infinitely requires no skill. 11fps during a wedding ceremony?? It's just too damn easy to become a photographer.

 

Until something goes wrong....

 

I've had people working with me who produce great work. Then something interesting comes up and they're a pile of goo. Because it's all been so easy they've never developed the skills to adapt when it all goes south. And some of these morons have photography degrees. Inevitably these little princesses will tell me it's the cameras fault and that'll be the last time the work with me. I'm actually hesitant to work with anyone under the age of 35 because the majority of them just don't have the skills required to make their gear work regardless of what happens. When someone tells me I can't shoot X with camera Y, I just smile and add them to my no hire list.

 

I've shot a hundred weddings with a pair of EM-5's. Another two hundred with a pair of Leica M's. 500 with Canon. 30 with Fuji. 300 with medium format film. The SL is an absolute doddle to shoot with, if you can get you techniques sorted and you accept you need to adapt your shooting to get the best from the gear you have rather than wasting time on the gear you don't.

 

Gordon

[LD_50]

It's not about "needing" a D5 to shoot a wedding (I've done it most recently with a D4s, 14-24, 58 f1.4, 200f2, and 105 micro), it's simply a better tool for the job than the SL if you are shooting in natural light and want AF. The Nikon D# series cameras are great all-arounders if you don't need big resolution. They're similar in this way to the SL for me.

 

The SL is great for much of what I do but I recognize where the old Nikon kit was better. Skill of course translates to the use of both kits but it doesn't negate each setup's advantages for me in a wedding (plus reception and portrait) shoot.

 

SL advantages for me:

- use of M lenses

- size with M lenses

- very accurate AF and MF with magnification

- Leica 24-90 is better than was my Nikon 24-70

- I can very accurately judge exposure with the EVF

- GPS and Wifi built in

- 24MP beats the 16MP with the D4s

- RRS bottom plate is much better integrated than with the D4s or D5

 

Nikon advantages for me:

- lens selection (200 f2 alone is a reason to buy into the system)

- AF speed in low light

- high ISO (outdoor reception on a farm in low light required this to avoid using flash)

- handling (Built in vertical grip is great for events)

- huge battery life and included dual-bay charger

- burst rate with OVF and tracking (kids running about)

[jrp]

The lighter lenses point is critical for someone who has spent their £$€¥ on lenses rather than a .

 

The DSLR is indispensable for many situations, if it is calibrated and there is no focus shift. But in some situations an SL with a couple of zooms or, in lower light, some Summiluxes is a more practical proposition, and easier to carry.

 

The point about technique is spot on. I have got better shots with an A7R II and 90mm Summicron than the longer zoom....

[earleygallery]

No it isn't. That's the same as saying a 5D mk IV is a full frame EOS 1300D. Sharing a lens mount doesn't make them the same.

 

Nor is it the OP's fault. More than one working photographer is using the SL to shoot weddings with great success. What Dan wants to know is why it's not working for him when it apparently works for others. Or at least, that's how I read it.

 

The reality is that the SL, and all mirrorless for that matter, requires some adjustment to shooting techniques in order to achieve the highest hit rate possible in lower light environments. These aren't necessarily deficiencies. It's just another set of skills that a photographer learns as they add new equipment to a shooting workflow. Also, for every situation where you might need to work a bit harder to get the shot compared to another camera there will be one where it is easier. Especially when shooting in a dynamic environment like a wedding.

 

Generally when I see the "wrong equipment for the job" ( I'd like to say I don't see this in Dan's comments) comments what I see is that there is another photographer what hasn't learned how to get the shot and is blaming it on the gear. People expect to be able to track a flea on the arse of a leaping gazelle at midnight without any skill development at all. And when one frame out of the 600 in their buffer doesn't work it's the "wrong gear". I shot BMX with my SL last week. 10 minutes of crap followed by some technique adjustment and 300 shots delivered to the client. You show me a guy who *needs* a D5 to shoot a wedding and I'll show you a guy who doesn't know what they're doing.

 

I'm as lazy as the next guy and I don't need my job to be any harder than it needs to be. However I really think that in some ways, cameras are killing photography. Photojournalism is dead because any monkey can hold an EOS1Dx and shoot endless frames at 15fps. Cherry picking the expression you want out of iphone video footage and cropping infinitely requires no skill. 11fps during a wedding ceremony?? It's just too damn easy to become a photographer.

 

Until something goes wrong....

 

I've had people working with me who produce great work. Then something interesting comes up and they're a pile of goo. Because it's all been so easy they've never developed the skills to adapt when it all goes south. And some of these morons have photography degrees. Inevitably these little princesses will tell me it's the cameras fault and that'll be the last time the work with me. I'm actually hesitant to work with anyone under the age of 35 because the majority of them just don't have the skills required to make their gear work regardless of what happens. When someone tells me I can't shoot X with camera Y, I just smile and add them to my no hire list.

 

I've shot a hundred weddings with a pair of EM-5's. Another two hundred with a pair of Leica M's. 500 with Canon. 30 with Fuji. 300 with medium format film. The SL is an absolute doddle to shoot with, if you can get you techniques sorted and you accept you need to adapt your shooting to get the best from the gear you have rather than wasting time on the gear you don't.

 

Gordon

 

Points taken. What I meant by my previous comment was that the AF system of the SL isn't the same as that of a DSLR, which still seems to be superior in terms of overall speed and low light capability than the mirrorless alternatives. 

 

There are times regardless of AF system that it is better to switch to manual focus. 

[LocalHero1953]

It's not about "needing" a D5 to shoot a wedding (I've done it most recently with a D4s, 14-24, 58 f1.4, 200f2, and 105 micro), it's simply a better tool for the job than the SL if you are shooting in natural light and want AF. The Nikon D# series cameras are great all-arounders if you don't need big resolution. They're similar in this way to the SL for me.

 

The SL is great for much of what I do but I recognize where the old Nikon kit was better. Skill of course translates to the use of both kits but it doesn't negate each setup's advantages for me in a wedding (plus reception and portrait) shoot.

 

SL advantages for me:

- use of M lenses

- size with M lenses

- very accurate AF and MF with magnification

- Leica 24-90 is better than was my Nikon 24-70

- I can very accurately judge exposure with the EVF

- GPS and Wifi built in

- 24MP beats the 16MP with the D4s

- RRS bottom plate is much better integrated than with the D4s or D5

 

Nikon advantages for me:

- lens selection (200 f2 alone is a reason to buy into the system)

- AF speed in low light

- high ISO (outdoor reception on a farm in low light required this to avoid using flash)

- handling (Built in vertical grip is great for events)

- huge battery life and included dual-bay charger

- burst rate with OVF and tracking (kids running about)

You don't mention noise.

As I wrote on another thread, I am a wedding expert, as a client and father of three married daughters. Give me a photographer any day who is quiet and self-effacing with their equipment, not clacking and rattling at sensitive moments.

The right tool for this sort of job is one with a quiet shutter.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[LD_50]

I've not had an issue with the sound from any of my cameras in a wedding, though I have only done a few. Quiet shutter or silent is certainly welcome but not required in this application.