Close range backfocus

[Alistairm]

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Good morning. 

 

In January this year I bought my first rangefinder - an MP (Type 240) and then more recently a Monochrom. I am smitten! 

 

I've been noticing lately that I've been missing focus, especially on the Noctilux at f/0.95 for close range subjects. After a period of assuming poor technique, I've done some testing and both cameras are back focusing by about 5cm, especially at short distances (1-2m). They do this with both the Noctilux and the 50mm Summicron APO - although it's slightly less obvious on the Cron, due to f/2 v f/0.95. 

 

Both cameras have traveled a fair bit, including over some fairly bumpy roads at times. 

 

I have pored over the internet to try and work out whether it's an adjustment issue, including the incredibly helpful thread here: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/118043-m9-coincidence-at-infinity/ 

 

Before I start fiddling, I am hoping some experienced rangefinder users can let me know whether I should be expecting absolutely perfect focus from the rangefinder at all distances, or is having to focus on the nostrils instead of the eyes of a portrait subject (which if I do renders the eyes sharply) normal? 

 

It seems to me that if these cameras do need a adjusting, I'm best off learning how to DIY, especially as the wait time from Sydney, Australia to Germany and back for repairs is in the order of 6 months! 

 

Obviously, the ideal for me would be to have the rangefinder showing focus at all distances, but if that's not going to happen and I need to learn to work differently I can. 

 

Thanks in advance for any help, tips, commentary and shared experience, which will be gratefully received. 

 

Warm regards, 

 

Alistair 

 

 

 

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[Peter Kilmister]

Welcome to the forum. The back focus might have been caused by a need for adjustment. If you get a clear focus on the nose and then the eye is in focus that sounds like it needs recalibrating.

Have you tried using LV (live view) or an EVF to see what happens? This would confirm whether the rangefinder (RF) is faulty.

[jaapv]

My advice would be to hand the whole system to a competent repair shop and have it back within a reasonable time in perfect calibration. No need to send it to Leica for this.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

My advice would be to hand the whole system to a competent repair shop and have it back within a reasonable time in perfect calibration. No need to send it to Leica for this.

 

 

type 240's aren't repaired anywhere in Oz. Even the official repair agent sends them to Germany.

 

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Good morning. 

 

In January this year I bought my first rangefinder - an MP (Type 240) and then more recently a Monochrom. I am smitten! 

 

I've been noticing lately that I've been missing focus, especially on the Noctilux at f/0.95 for close range subjects. After a period of assuming poor technique, I've done some testing and both cameras are back focusing by about 5cm, especially at short distances (1-2m). They do this with both the Noctilux and the 50mm Summicron APO - although it's slightly less obvious on the Cron, due to f/2 v f/0.95. 

 

Both cameras have traveled a fair bit, including over some fairly bumpy roads at times. 

 

I have pored over the internet to try and work out whether it's an adjustment issue, including the incredibly helpful thread here: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/118043-m9-coincidence-at-infinity/ 

 

Before I start fiddling, I am hoping some experienced rangefinder users can let me know whether I should be expecting absolutely perfect focus from the rangefinder at all distances, or is having to focus on the nostrils instead of the eyes of a portrait subject (which if I do renders the eyes sharply) normal? 

 

It seems to me that if these cameras do need a adjusting, I'm best off learning how to DIY, especially as the wait time from Sydney, Australia to Germany and back for repairs is in the order of 6 months! 

 

Obviously, the ideal for me would be to have the rangefinder showing focus at all distances, but if that's not going to happen and I need to learn to work differently I can. 

 

Thanks in advance for any help, tips, commentary and shared experience, which will be gratefully received. 

 

Warm regards, 

 

Alistair 

 

Is your monochrome the later one or the M9 version?

 

A few things to note:

 

1. Gear lash. Stupid term but I've not found a better name for it. Basically either through tiny mechanical tolerances or focus technique the focus point is slightly different depending on what way you focus. With my Noctilux and 90AA I need to always focus from the infinity side. If I focus the other way I almost always back focus slightly. So try testing focus in both directions.

 

2. M240 calibration: It's more difficult to calibrate the new M, except for infinity focus. OTOH it's also a lot harder to knock it out. It's likely that only infinity has moved a bit. DOF is likely helping at longer distances, so you need to do some proper focus testing. Close, mid and infinity. If infinity is obviously out then great but sometimes it's hard to tell if it's a tiny bit out and that can make a bigger difference at closer distances. My preference is to do a 20 meter focus test as well. When my M was out, I couldn't see much wrong at infinity but calibrating at 20 meters brought everything back to where it should be. If I'm confident the focus throw is OK then I use a 20m target to calibrate rather than infinity.

 

3. The new M has some locking solution on the infinity screw. Acetone on a cotton tip will soften it and give you a few minutes to adjust before it resets. A tiny amount. Do not get on your sensor. With the camera facing normally (upright not upside down) and using a 2mm allen key, moving the key left to right fixes back focus and moving right to left fixes front focus. Tiny adjustments are usually all that's required. Be patient. I take about 30 minutes to really get my calibration perfect and I've done it a dozen times. You'll need a close/20m/infinity target to do your testing with. I now just use the rear screen with highest quality jpeg and high sharpening and that's good enough for calibration. Always check all three focus distances after each change.

 

4. The Noctilux is still tricky even with perfect calibration.

 

Gordon

 

p.s. Calibration should be between 8 and 12 weeks, which is still too long. At the new Leica Store opening in December I will be asking Leica about how they're going to improve that for us.

Edited November 26, 2016 by FlashGordonPhotography

[jaapv]

type 240's aren't repaired anywhere in Oz. Even the official repair agent sends them to Germany.

 

Gordon

Really? Rangefinder and lens adjustments are normally done by the well-known repair persons.

[ELAN]

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Alistair, I had a similar experience to yours.  For months my photos had ears in focus instead of the eyes.  Drove me nuts.  I tried clumsy adjustments in my technique but that didn't make it any better. 

 

Since parting from my M for long wasn't an option I finally flew to Wetzlar last month to have my M-P calibrated while I wait.  They asked for all my lenses as well, and four hours later it all came back calibrated and cleaned.  Turns out my 28 Lux and 35 FLE were also a bit off.  Since then my focus has been perfect!

[Alistairm]

Alistair, I had a similar experience to yours.  For months my photos had ears in focus instead of the eyes.  Drove me nuts.  I tried clumsy adjustments in my technique but that didn't make it any better. 

 

Since parting from my M for long wasn't an option I finally flew to Wetzlar last month to have my M-P calibrated while I wait.  They asked for all my lenses as well, and four hours later it all came back calibrated and cleaned.  Turns out my 28 Lux and 35 FLE were also a bit off.  Since then my focus has been perfect!

Gah! That's a bit tough to hear, as it's a long way from Sydney! Need to find an option closer to home. 

 

(Fortunately, I'm sure it is the rangefinder and not the lenses, as the same issue exhibits even with the 28 cron at f/2.8, for about the same amount of backfocus.) 

 

Alistair 

Edited November 27, 2016 by Alistairm

[Peter H]

I personally find this need for regular (albeit infrequent) calibration A big, painful drawback with M cameras. Big enough to make me now seriously consider moving away from Ms after over 30 years of use.

[ELAN]

(Fortunately, I'm sure it is the rangefinder and not the lenses, as the same issue exhibits even with the 28 cron at f/2.8, for about the same amount of backfocus.) 

 

I also thought my lenses were fine since the back focus was consistent across all my lenses.  I was surprised when Leica said two of my four lenses were also off.

[jaapv]

I personally find this need for regular (albeit infrequent) calibration A big, painful drawback with M cameras. Big enough to make me now seriously consider moving away from Ms after over 30 years of use.

[Peter H]

 

I personally find this need for regular (albeit infrequent) calibration A big, painful drawback with M cameras. Big enough to make me now seriously consider moving away from Ms after over 30 years of use.

 

 

 

 

Pardon?

[jaapv]

Sorry, pressing matters when posting.

I was going to say that the 240 and lenses in general do not go out of calibration spontaneously in my experience. Even the older rangefinders are quite stable once adjusted properly, bar mechanical impact.

So there is no need for periodical recalibration.

[Peter H]

Sorry, pressing matters when posting.

I was going to say that the 240 and lenses in general do not go out of calibration spontaneously in my experience. Even the older rangefinders are quite stable once adjusted properly, bar mechanical impact.

So there is no need for periodical recalibration.

 

 

 

Yes, I thought that too but I'm now finding more of my lenses creeping out of line with my M, particularly my 35 and 50 Summiluxes, and as far as I'm aware I haven't knocked it or done anything that I haven't done with it in its previous three years. 

 

If I now have to be without it for a couple of months as I was when I had my M9 and 4 lenses re-calibrated, and pay handsomely for the privilege, I do wonder whether I want to do that when there are other cameras around like the SL, or to be perfectly honest a Fuji that will not ever have that problem. It won't on its own persuade me to get rid of it, but it is a significant negative when weighing things up.

[jaapv]

It is hard to imagine a lens creeping out of calibration, as the adjustments are by shims. Do check the tightness of the screws securing the mount flanges.  May I suggest that  -if needed- you make use of the services of Will van Manen, as he offers a very good turnaround at reasonable prices and high-quality work.

I once had a sudden miscalibration on my M. I found a shred of paper in the roller bearing. I am completely puzzled how it came there. After I removed it, the mechanism did need a minor twist of the Allen key, making it spot-on again as it has been from day 1.

[pico]

It is hard to imagine a lens creeping out of calibration, as the adjustments are by shims.

 

Be it far from me to criticize you, Jaap, but please tell us where the shims are.

.

[jaapv]

I wouldn't know, Pico, it was explained to me by a qualified person and by Leica. When my Summilux 50 which was backfocusing from new was adjusted by Leica it took longer as they were - as they said- waiting for the right shims, for instance.

[Peter H]

Thanks Jaap, however it may not be that they are creeping but that I'm slow to recognise the problem and reluctant to accept the reality.. In any event, it's a nuisance.

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[Gregm61]

I have a set of M lenses I use between my M262 and M9-P. The M262 I purchased new in February. The M9-P used, but it went to Leica NJ for the new sensor switch out in January and came back all calibrated in May.

 

Two of my lenses, the 35mm f2 ASPH and 75mm f2 APO seem just a touch off at f2 and from 6-7 feet and in (nice and sharp otherwise) on my M262, but work flawlessly at any distance on the M9-P. All my other lenses, 28, 50, 90, 21 and 18, work fine up close and at distance on both bodies.

 

The 35 and 75's are two of only three from the lot that are f2 maximum aperture lenses, the other being the 50mm f2, which focuses fine on both bodies. All of my lenses were purchased used.

[sblutter]

I had trouble with M9 & a few lenses.  DAG fixed everything up - with 240, all perfect - which is REALLY IMPORTANT!