Price increase

[willeica]

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When somebody owing you money refuses to pay and he is not a personal friend, a relative etc., what do you do? How does one deal with defaulting debtors? This isn’t just about contractual obligations – in Germany it wouldn’t enter anyone’s mind that a refusal to pay could imply a wish to cancel a subscription, rather than as an unwillingness to pay. Because if somebody wants to cancel the subscription, why don’t they just say so? When dealing with Germans it is generally advisable to explicitly and unambiguously say what it is that you want.

 

(Just the other day I came across a piece of advice to British politicians, namely that in Germany, no means no. Specifically, if you ask Chancellor Merkel whether the UK could cancel free movement but retain access to the Single Market and she says “No”, that doesn’t mean she might say “Yes” eventually if you pester her long enough – it means “No”. “No” as in “Sorry mate, no dice, forget about it.” We are funny that way.)

Saying that you do not want something is considered polite in most parts of the world. This is not a case of a defaulting debtor but rather one where a company wants to force people to take and pay for goods that they clearly do not want and to use legal powers to enforce that situation. In most parts of the world this is rightly regarded as rude thievery, but apparently in Germany this type of behaviour is considered to be OK.

 

As well as expecting the rest of the world to understand your country, you might take some time to understand the rest of the world. That is the only way that progress can be achieved in international relations.

 

William

[IkarusJohn]

Coincidentally, I just got this from a UK publisher:

 

 

Hi John,

 

I’ve been meaning to call you but due to the time difference this is proving to be difficult so I thought an email would be most suitable.

 

I just wanted to inform you that your e-Print License has now expired and is due for renewal.

 

Would you like me to email you the renewal forms?

 

I await your instructions.

 

Kind Regards,

 

 

Rather nice. 

[Guest]

Just following orders.

.

Now where have we heard that one before?

[almoore]

When dealing with Germans it is generally advisable to explicitly and unambiguously say what it is that you want.

 

Ok.

 

We want you to adopt an international norm of polite behaviour and stop treating your ex-subscribers as criminals rather than as people who have made the entirely rational decision that your magazine is not the worth the price you demand for it.

 

I have to say, as an instinctively anarchist Brit who has worked with a number of German publications - in particular Der Spiegel and Die Zeit - over many years, you're not terribly representative of the overall vibe of your country's media industry. The people that I deal with politely explain issues of German exceptionalism (for example, the accounts department going through my hotel expenses and striking out the occasional glass of wine) and I politely apologise for being terribly and un-Germanically louche. Whatever our differences, it still seems to work.

[pop]

Ok.

 

We want you to adopt an international norm of polite behaviour and stop treating your ex-subscribers as criminals rather than as people who have made the entirely rational decision that your magazine is not the worth the price you demand for it.

 

I have to say, as an instinctively anarchist Brit who has worked with a number of German publications - in particular Der Spiegel and Die Zeit - over many years, you're not terribly representative of the overall vibe of your country's media industry. The people that I deal with politely explain issues of German exceptionalism (for example, the accounts department going through my hotel expenses and striking out the occasional glass of wine) and I politely apologise for being terribly and un-Germanically louche. Whatever our differences, it still seems to work.

LFI treats its customers with courtesy and respect; the subscription contract reads that LFI will keep on sending copies until the customer says he doesn't want any more copies. The customer is required to fulfil his part of the deal by paying for the copies he receives.

 

For customers wanting to prolong the subscription, it's a hassle-free procedure. For those not wanting to prolong, all it takes is sending a mail and telling their bank to cease the yearly payment.

 

I see that some members here find it polite to enter into an agreement and then to blame LFI for sticking to it. They think it proper behaviour not to pay for goods ordered and received. 

 

All this has been discussed in another thread. This thread here is about a price increase in Great Britain, as far as I can make out.

[IkarusJohn]

LFI treats its customers with courtesy and respect ...

Apparently not.

[Manoleica]

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I'm feeling amazingly anti, so a lens cost a little more or little less in different countries. How lucky you are that you can even consider spending such a substantial amount.. oh the lucky rich...L

[pop]

Apparently not.

Well, they send their products to the customers, trusting that the customers will honor the contract by paying for the issues received.

 

If you think that trying to recover money owed for products received is discourtuous and lacking respect, I'd rather not do business with you. Luckily, I can afford to be picky while LFI can not, it seems.

[wattsy]

LFI treats its customers with courtesy and respect; the subscription contract reads that LFI will keep on sending copies until the customer says he doesn't want any more copies. The customer is required to fulfil his part of the deal by paying for the copies he receives.

 

For customers wanting to prolong the subscription, it's a hassle-free procedure. For those not wanting to prolong, all it takes is sending a mail and telling their bank to cease the yearly payment.

 

I see that some members here find it polite to enter into an agreement and then to blame LFI for sticking to it. They think it proper behaviour not to pay for goods ordered and received. 

 

All this has been discussed in another thread. This thread here is about a price increase in Great Britain, as far as I can make out.

 

 

Give it a rest. The LFI approach to subscriptions is ludicrous: both the assumption that a subscription is for ever (unless informed otherwise) and the subsequent overzealous hounding of anyone who fails to inform LFI that they no longer wish to subscribe to their crappy magazine.  

[Manoleica]

Whatever the LFI policy, if You wish to Cancel, surely it is your responsibility to inform whoever the seller is.. if thereafter demands continue, a letter to the relevant CEO usually suffices...L

[IkarusJohn]

Well, they send their products to the customers, trusting that the customers will honor the contract by paying for the issues received.

 

If you think that trying to recover money owed for products received is discourtuous and lacking respect, I'd rather not do business with you. Luckily, I can afford to be picky while LFI can not, it seems.

 

Pop, we've been over this.  No need to misrepresent my position ...

[pop]

Give it a rest. The LFI approach to subscriptions is ludicrous: both the assumption that a subscription is for ever (unless informed otherwise) and the subsequent overzealous hounding of anyone who fails to inform LFI that they no longer wish to subscribe to their crappy magazine.  

Well, why would anyone willingly and explicitly enter a contract which explicitly states those terms, and for a crappy magazine, to boot?

 

The "overzealous hounding" is clearly an invoice for goods received. As has been said here and elsewhere, you can cancel at any time, even while overzealously being hounded. If I recall that correctly, members have even been spared the incredible expense of paying for issues received, once the explained to LFI that they had missed the deadline for cancelling.

 

To be quite clear about that: I do not like self-renewing subscriptions and services and I avoid them whenever I can. However, once I do enter the contract, I feel myself bound to it no less than I feel the other party bound. I do not publicly blame my provider for holding to their end of the contract when I could not be bothered to cancel the service.

[jaapv]

Whatever the LFI policy, if You wish to Cancel, surely it is your responsibility to inform whoever the seller is.. if thereafter demands continue, a letter to the relevant CEO usually suffices...L

The basic problem is that in the UK it is the habit that a contract for a magazine subscription is for a stated time only and will end automatically, as opposed to most European countries.

However, it is stated clearly in Continental subscription contracts that they carry an automatic renewal unless cancelled, which law applies and in German ones even which legal venue has jurisdiction.

And an automatic renewal incurs a debt, something a Continental person finds quite normal, as he finds it normal that a company will attempt to collect a debt.

 

This whole discussion arises from a dissonance in systems between the UK -and UK related countries- and the rest of Europe.

 

I personally find it very annoying that I always have chase a  publication up, having to go through the resubscription (or prolongation if one is lucky) process, giving credit card details, getting on the phone when things get unstuck, etc each year with British publications, let alone having to keep track of which magazine will stop coming when (usually an unpleasant surprise calling for the additional hassle of trying to get hold of the missing back-issues).

 

However, I can accept that different countries do things differently. , despite the inconvenience and annoyance.

[Manoleica]

Well, why would anyone willingly and explicitly enter a contract which explicitly states those terms, and for a crappy magazine, to boot?

 

The "overzealous hounding" is clearly an invoice for goods received. As has been said here and elsewhere, you can cancel at any time, even while overzealously being hounded. If I recall that correctly, members have even been spared the incredible expense of paying for issues received, once the explained to LFI that they had missed the deadline for cancelling.

 

To be quite clear about that: I do not like self-renewing subscriptions and services and I avoid them whenever I can. However, once I do enter the contract, I feel myself bound to it no less than I feel the other party bound. I do not publicly blame my provider for holding to their end of the contract when I could not be bothered to cancel the service.

Yes, I agree, but we have members who love to verbalize and subsequently see their name on a Post. Obviously, they have an Insecure

issue.. When necessary I predate a Cancellation in my calendar..if I'm too lazy to act upon it.. it is unequivocally my fault..

[almoore]

LFI treats its customers with courtesy and respect...

Clearly not, by international standards.

 

If adhering to global norms is too onerous for any business venture, then it might be best to stick with domestic sales only.

[IkarusJohn]

Pop & Jaap, is this working for you?

[pop]

...global norms...

If it's a global norm, then there clearly has to be some document outlining that norm and its applicability. Could you please provide a link?

[wattsy]

The basic problem is that in the UK it is the habit that a contract for a magazine subscription is for a stated time only and will end automatically, as opposed to most European countries.

However, it is stated clearly in Continental subscription contracts that they carry an automatic renewal unless cancelled, which law applies and in German ones even which legal venue has jurisdiction.

And an automatic renewal incurs a debt, something a Continental person finds quite normal, as he finds it normal that a company will attempt to collect a debt.

 

This whole discussion arises from a dissonance in systems between the UK -and UK related countries- and the rest of Europe.

 

I personally find it very annoying that I always have chase a  publication up, having to go through the resubscription (or prolongation if one is lucky) process, giving credit card details, getting on the phone when things get unstuck, etc each year with British publications, let alone having to keep track of which magazine will stop coming when (usually an unpleasant surprise calling for the additional hassle of trying to get hold of the missing back-issues).

 

However, I can accept that different countries do things differently. , despite the inconvenience and annoyance.

 

 

I think you are overstating the dissonance (as IMO you often do). The issue here (as far as I see it) isn't that the magazine subscription auto-renews – I have plenty of subscriptions to services and products, for example Spotify, Adobe CC, my car insurance (to name three off the top of my head) which auto-renew, theoretically forever – but rather the nub of the problem here seems to be that LFI continue to send the magazine when someone is no longer paying for it and then take action to recover the subsequent debt. I do happen to agree with Pop and others that it is no great hardship to follow the correct procedures and proactively cancel a subscription – that does indeed seem like the normal thing to do – but it also seems odd to me, in this day and age, that LFI carry on sending the magazine when a customer is no longer paying for it. Surely easier for the computerised system to simply put a hold against a customer's name when there is an issue with payment and then communicate (email or whatever) to attempt to resolve the problem (could be a lapsed credit card or a customer has died) rather than continuing to send the goods with a subsequent demand for payment.

[almoore]

Resistance is clearly futile, so I'm just going to get on board with the parallel Leicaverse, where up is down, black is white and rude is actually polite. I'm feeling better already.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[willeica]

If it's a global norm, then there clearly has to be some document outlining that norm and its applicability. Could you please provide a link?

 

It is called good customer treatment, which is a universal concept understood by businesses and customers across the globe. LFI has the option of not sending the magazine if payment is not received as the customer has failed to comply with or renew his/her contract. Using debt collectors against your own customers is not really the kind of thing that encourages a warm feeling with consumers. It is the commercial equivalent of 'forced feeding'.

 

William