Price increase

[IkarusJohn]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

A speed limit is not a law.

Yes it is.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[ianman]

Stop banging on about speed limits   

[mjh]

Of course laws may differ within a 'common market' and the Germans have an entitlement to their law. My general point was that LFI operate within an EU market and should, if they are being intelligent about it, realise that different laws and consumer cultures apply in different parts of the Union.

When two parties from different countries sign a contract, some country’s law must apply and in this case this is German law – actually that is part of the contract. But apart from the applicable law the very idea one could terminate a contract just by refusing to fulfill one’s contractual obligations did strike me as odd – that is not how we do business here. You can cancel a subscription at any time, no questions asked, but you have to say so. Pacta sunt servanda.

[IkarusJohn]

When two parties from different countries sign a contract, some country’s law must apply and in this case this is German law – actually that is part of the contract. But apart from the applicable law the very idea one could terminate a contract just by refusing to fulfill one’s contractual obligations did strike me as odd – that is not how we do business here. You can cancel a subscription at any time, no questions asked, but you have to say so. Pacta sunt servanda.

That's only part of the picture, Michael, for all the reasons outlined above.

 

More critically, why persist with an approach which is so clearly unpopular with what should be your most loyal readership? I can't imagine anyone receiving threatening letters re-subscribing. I have many European subscriptions and they all warn me my subscription is about to expire, and which will be the last. No confusion. If I don't renew, the subscription stops.

 

You simply terminate the contract by discontinuing the subscription. That's not odd at all. It's actually pretty standard practice - The Economist, for example.

[Guest]

A speed limit is not a law.

It is in the uk. Do it too often and your driving licence goes.

[jaapv]

You misinterpret what I am saying. Of course laws may differ within a 'common market' and the Germans have an entitlement to their law. My general point was that LFI operate within an EU market and should, if they are being intelligent about it, realise that different laws and consumer cultures apply in different parts of the Union. In some countries what they are doing would be illegal. Your defence of LFI is admirable but let's call a 'spade a spade' and not a 'shovel' . The LFI practice of pursuing non paying customers with what might be described as 'knuckle breakers' rather than simply not sending any more copies of the magazine is downright bad treatment of consumers and no amount of quoting German law makes it any better.

 

William

The only problem being that the British system is rather endemic to the UK and its (former) colonies. Not always readily comprehensible to the rest of the world...

[ianman]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Yep - get out more. Travelling across Europe, through numerous borders, you hardly notice that you're in another country (apart from your cellphone beeping). Speed limits charge all over the place, even in Germany, and they're all plackarded.

Yes... I am quite aware of that fact... as I have been "banging on" about. Tell me, do you actually read what others write. In fact, do you actually remember what you write ?

Get out more... yes you are right I should. In the last - pretty typical for me - six months, I have driven in the UK, Belgium, France, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Germany, Switzerland and Italy. Yeah, I really should get out more.

[IkarusJohn]

The only problem being that the British system is rather endemic to the UK and its (former) colonies. Not always readily comprehensible to the rest of the world...

I don't think that's true at all. I subscribe to magazines from France and other places and that's exactly what happens.

 

The real issue you keep ducking is that it's actually a good idea, whereas sending rude threatening letters never is. The question is not what LFI's contract says or whether or not it can be enforced, but that it's a terrible way of running subscriptions.

 

Leaving aside your backhander at the UK and former colonies (which I'm sure was not intended), isn't the point to keep subscribers, increase circulation and not waste time and effort sending out magazines to people who haven't paid for them? My Hasselblad magazine stopped when I stopped paying. If I recall correctly, they sent me a nice letter saying I could resubscribe any time. That's a Swedish company, by the way.

 

Your loyal defence of all thing Leica, Jaap, is heroic.

[Guest]

Your wish may come true...http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37857785

Interesting news. I could see a situation arising where the government is forced into a general election in about 12 months. By now the price increases will be starting to hurt many people. The Leader of the opposition will start to make all sorts of promises to scrub Brexit if his or her party is elected and so the merry go round will continue.

I can not imagine any future government being so stupid as to have a referendum about anything ever again.

[IkarusJohn]

Yes... I am quite aware of that fact... as I have been "banging on" about. Tell me, do you actually read what others write. In fact, do you actually remember what you write ?

Get out more... yes you are right I should. In the last - pretty typical for me - six months, I have driven in the UK, Belgium, France, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Germany, Switzerland and Italy. Yeah, I really should get out more.

Sorry - I didn't make myself clear. I meant driving outside Europe. Didn't that come through? Anyway, my intention was not to rattle your cage. From my experience, there is a conformity in many things European, when coming from outside. You don't see it (travelling within Europe) - that's fine.

[pop]

I don't think that's true at all. I subscribe to magazines from France and other places and that's exactly what happens.

 

The real issue you keep ducking is that it's actually a good idea, whereas sending rude threatening letters never is. The question is not what LFI's contract says or whether or not it can be enforced, but that it's a terrible way of running subscriptions. (...)

Tribalism at work? On two sides?

[mjh]

The real issue you keep ducking is that it's actually a good idea, whereas sending rude threatening letters never is.

When somebody owing you money refuses to pay and he is not a personal friend, a relative etc., what do you do? How does one deal with defaulting debtors? This isn’t just about contractual obligations – in Germany it wouldn’t enter anyone’s mind that a refusal to pay could imply a wish to cancel a subscription, rather than as an unwillingness to pay. Because if somebody wants to cancel the subscription, why don’t they just say so? When dealing with Germans it is generally advisable to explicitly and unambiguously say what it is that you want.

 

(Just the other day I came across a piece of advice to British politicians, namely that in Germany, no means no. Specifically, if you ask Chancellor Merkel whether the UK could cancel free movement but retain access to the Single Market and she says “No”, that doesn’t mean she might say “Yes” eventually if you pester her long enough – it means “No”. “No” as in “Sorry mate, no dice, forget about it.” We are funny that way.)

[keithlaban.co.uk]

The original topic was far more interesting if somewhat unwelcome.

[pico]

When somebody owing you money refuses to pay and he is not a personal friend, a relative etc., what do you do? How does one deal with defaulting debtors? This isn’t just about contractual obligations – in Germany it wouldn’t enter anyone’s mind that a refusal to pay could imply a wish to cancel a subscription,

Sheesh, talk about being provincial!

 

Why should you not consider your subscribers as people as you might an associate or friend? Not German-like? When you create a contract why should there not be a requirement that each party recognizes a commitment to equal consideration (in the US consideration is exchange of items of value - money, magazine, etc.)? Finally, it might behoove the German enterprise to realize that an International position might be more considerate, and in the end, profitable.

 

I have a feeling that the subscription service is outsourced to an automated rule-based system because it is cheap, ah, cost-effective, and relieves the publisher of requiring ethics, indeed a brain.

[M9reno]

When somebody owing you money refuses to pay and he is not a personal friend, a relative etc., what do you do? How does one deal with defaulting debtors? This isn’t just about contractual obligations – in Germany it wouldn’t enter anyone’s mind that a refusal to pay could imply a wish to cancel a subscription, rather than as an unwillingness to pay. Because if somebody wants to cancel the subscription, why don’t they just say so? When dealing with Germans it is generally advisable to explicitly and unambiguously say what it is that you want.

 

(Just the other day I came across a piece of advice to British politicians, namely that in Germany, no means no. Specifically, if you ask Chancellor Merkel whether the UK could cancel free movement but retain access to the Single Market and she says “No”, that doesn’t mean she might say “Yes” eventually if you pester her long enough – it means “No”. “No” as in “Sorry mate, no dice, forget about it.” We are funny that way.)

Sorry, Michael.  This sounds a wee bit arrogant: since when does your Chancellor speak for the entire EU?  In my mind views like this do nothing except confirm a lot of the prejudices that led UK voters to believe the 'take back control' rhetoric.

[mjh]

Sorry, Michael.  This sounds a wee bit arrogant: since when does your Chancellor speak for the entire EU?

I’m just quoting from that advice. Anyway, the UK would have to convince every single member state so a “No” from any member state means “No”. It could be a “No” from Luxembourg or Lithuania.

[ianman]

Nice attitude.

 

See if the EU "partners" were really "partners", it shouldn't be a case of convincing them not to say "no". It's more like, "the current EU is not what we signed up for, can we leave you guys to do your thing and still remain friends and partners ?"

 

But it seems that nice Mr Junckers (pffff) attitude is contagious.

[pico]

I’m just quoting from that advice.

 

Just following orders.

.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[IkarusJohn]

When somebody owing you money refuses to pay and he is not a personal friend, a relative etc., what do you do? How does one deal with defaulting debtors? This isn’t just about contractual obligations – in Germany it wouldn’t enter anyone’s mind that a refusal to pay could imply a wish to cancel a subscription, rather than as an unwillingness to pay. Because if somebody wants to cancel the subscription, why don’t they just say so? When dealing with Germans it is generally advisable to explicitly and unambiguously say what it is that you want.

 

(Just the other day I came across a piece of advice to British politicians, namely that in Germany, no means no. Specifically, if you ask Chancellor Merkel whether the UK could cancel free movement but retain access to the Single Market and she says “No”, that doesn’t mean she might say “Yes” eventually if you pester her long enough – it means “No”. “No” as in “Sorry mate, no dice, forget about it.” We are funny that way.)

 

Easy.  By not creating the debt in the first place.

 

It's only a contractual obligation because you make it one.  By saying "no' in Germany means "no", what you're saying is "We sell our magazine outside of Germany, but you will do this in the German way".  That's your right, but you shouldn't be surprised if people don't do things the German way.  You do publish your German magazine in English ...

[willeica]

The only problem being that the British system is rather endemic to the UK and its (former) colonies. Not always readily comprehensible to the rest of the world...

 

You may have noticed that I am Irish and not British. My view on this has no connection whatsoever with Ireland having been formerly a colony of Britain. You certainly know how to hit a raw nerve with an Irishman!

 

Good customer treatment is the same all over the world but some here believe that treating customers badly is OK if it is 'permitted' by the laws of a particular country. 

 

William