New stuff for Leica S at Photokinia

[ZHNL]

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We didn't discuss new lenses in the interview. The current line-up is already quite extensive: 24, 30, 35, 45, 70, 100, 120, 180, 30-90, 120 TS. Perhaps the only area lacking is in longer focal lengths. I've been asking for a 90-250 lens for a while as I think this could round out the system nicely.  

 

I have had discussions with Stephan Schulz and Toni Felsner over the years regarding a wide-angle TS. The issue is that for such a niche product, the cost would be astronomical. Very few people actually use wide-angle TS lenses. The intersection of these photographers and S owners is even smaller. How many lenses could Leica possibly hope to sell? 100? 200? If you take the average R&D and tooling costs of 1-3 million EUR per lens, this is a losing equation.  Would you be willing to pay 20,000 EUR for a lens? For the same price, you could get the new Sinarback S 30|45, a tech camera and a wide-angle view camera lens. 

 

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on DR. Different manufacturers tune their RAW files in various ways to add malleability. Leica files have never been particularly resilient in highlights. The S007 only improves in this regard by a half a stop at the most over the S006. But the shadows are another story entirely. This is why I stated that I expose for the highlights in the scene and let the shadows go dark. At ISO 100, I can pull up the shadows 3 or sometimes 4 stops. They are the most malleable files I've ever worked with in my 26 years of working in digital imaging. 

 

I'd also disagree with saying the images are good up to ISO 800. ISO 1600 and 3200 look incredible. ISO 6400, if properly exposed, is extremely impressive. 

 

I've never had an issue with AF precision on the S. As early as the S2, I felt that the AF was one of the most precise systems I'd used to date. Excellent shot-to-shot consistency, especially compared to N and C who employ fuzzy logic in their predictive AF systems. I agree that after using the completely silent AF in the Leica SL lenses, the S lenses sound pretty noisy by comparison. 

 

To me, the Hassy X1D AF sounded a bit grindy and cheap, like plastic-on-plastic. 

 

David, Thanks for drop in.

 

The T/S lens comment make a lot of sense to me.

 

I had S007 for about 4 month, I really don't feel its sensor has the dynamic range of D810 even though it has about 1~2 stop headroom above S006. Push shadow has always be a specialty of Nikon/Sony sensor for years. Don't S007 has the same sensor base of M240?

 

As for AF, I have to say in field and also extensive testing on both S006 and S007 with three lenses I have 35/70/100. If you shoot f8/f11, you will not see it but any time you shoot f2.5~f4, you need be careful. It consistently fail lock focus at infinity,(It will lock focus but always front focus) especially for trees, grass or anything don't have strong geometry shape with strong contrast. I also really hate it is hyper focusing implementation, once you are at f11, even you change your focusing point to closer distance, the camera will not re-engage focusing consider it is in the DOF range by computer but that is not the way most photographer work, I am not only want the focus spot in focus, also want it is locate in certain DOF window. In that case, I have to wide open aperture and focus again, then stop down. It is PIA in the field. 

 

Another point is AF spot is huge, at close distance, you have no control to AF point, algorithms underneath is not transparent to user, you don't know it will focus on eye slash or eye ball. I also test it at long distance and it shows different sensitivity on vertical or horizontal bar make me think the AF is not cross type. 

 

If anybody think I have faulty lenses and body, I sent everything to Leica and they were determined in spec. I actually know that before sending but still want confirm it. It is really the limitation of technology IMHO. 

 

Having said that, all these don't prevent I enjoy the system and that is why I am still with the system. 

[Jeff S]

David, thanks for this. Very helpful.

 

Welcome.  But maybe you could get a bit more creative on your forum name.   

 

Jeff

[siddhaarta]

David, Thanks for drop in.

 

The T/S lens comment make a lot of sense to me.

 

I had S007 for about 4 month, I really don't feel its sensor has the dynamic range of D810 even though it has about 1~2 stop headroom above S006. Push shadow has always be a specialty of Nikon/Sony sensor for years. Don't S007 has the same sensor base of M240?

 

As for AF, I have to say in field and also extensive testing on both S006 and S007 with three lenses I have 35/70/100. If you shoot f8/f11, you will not see it but any time you shoot f2.5~f4, you need be careful. It consistently fail lock focus at infinity,(It will lock focus but always front focus) especially for trees, grass or anything don't have strong geometry shape with strong contrast. I also really hate it is hyper focusing implementation, once you are at f11, even you change your focusing point to closer distance, the camera will not re-engage focusing consider it is in the DOF range by computer but that is not the way most photographer work, I am not only want the focus spot in focus, also want it is locate in certain DOF window. In that case, I have to wide open aperture and focus again, then stop down. It is PIA in the field. 

 

Another point is AF spot is huge, at close distance, you have no control to AF point, algorithms underneath is not transparent to user, you don't know it will focus on eye slash or eye ball. I also test it at long distance and it shows different sensitivity on vertical or horizontal bar make me think the AF is not cross type. 

 

If anybody think I have faulty lenses and body, I sent everything to Leica and they were determined in spec. I actually know that before sending but still want confirm it. It is really the limitation of technology IMHO. 

 

Having said that, all these don't prevent I enjoy the system and that is why I am still with the system. 

 

 

 

What you describe on AF, is exactly what I have seen in my tests and in practice. Also sometimes slight but important differences between PD-AF and CD-AF under controlled shooting.

 

I also still enjoy the S and have no plans whatsoever to change the system, but she is a DIVA and - sincerely- with all the problems with autofocus I even think I would enjoy the system more if it would be pure manual focus.

[Jeff S]

Very few people actually use wide-angle TS lenses. 

I must hang with a different crowd; most folks I know owning Canon (some Nikon) T/S lenses prefer using 24 or 45, not 90, especially for architecture and landscape.  These are mostly the same people who came from large format view camera experience.

 

I don't dispute, however, the overall economics of a limited audience....for any T/S.  

 

Jeff

[dfarkas]

David, Thanks for drop in.

 

The T/S lens comment make a lot of sense to me.

 

I had S007 for about 4 month, I really don't feel its sensor has the dynamic range of D810 even though it has about 1~2 stop headroom above S006. Push shadow has always be a specialty of Nikon/Sony sensor for years. Don't S007 has the same sensor base of M240?

 

As for AF, I have to say in field and also extensive testing on both S006 and S007 with three lenses I have 35/70/100. If you shoot f8/f11, you will not see it but any time you shoot f2.5~f4, you need be careful. It consistently fail lock focus at infinity,(It will lock focus but always front focus) especially for trees, grass or anything don't have strong geometry shape with strong contrast. I also really hate it is hyper focusing implementation, once you are at f11, even you change your focusing point to closer distance, the camera will not re-engage focusing consider it is in the DOF range by computer but that is not the way most photographer work, I am not only want the focus spot in focus, also want it is locate in certain DOF window. In that case, I have to wide open aperture and focus again, then stop down. It is PIA in the field. 

 

Another point is AF spot is huge, at close distance, you have no control to AF point, algorithms underneath is not transparent to user, you don't know it will focus on eye slash or eye ball. I also test it at long distance and it shows different sensitivity on vertical or horizontal bar make me think the AF is not cross type. 

 

If anybody think I have faulty lenses and body, I sent everything to Leica and they were determined in spec. I actually know that before sending but still want confirm it. It is really the limitation of technology IMHO. 

 

Having said that, all these don't prevent I enjoy the system and that is why I am still with the system. 

 

I don't have AF issues when shooting landscape at infinity....because I don't use AF in those situations. The DOF readout on the top LCD has been a game changer for me. I just select set the aperture to f/11 and dial in the focus manually until I achieve hyperfocal. Done and done. 

[nunnzzzz]

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[R3D-D0T]

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I had S007 for about 4 month, I really don't feel its sensor has the dynamic range of D810 even though it has about 1~2 stop headroom above S006. Push shadow has always be a specialty of Nikon/Sony sensor for years. Don't S007 has the same sensor base of M240?

 

 

This is what concerned me most about the S line. With the D810 and Otus, it makes the S a hard sell. Unless you really need autofocus and weather sealing, it's hard to justify getting into the S at that price point.

[siddhaarta]

This is what concerned me most about the S line. With the D810 and Otus, it makes the S a hard sell. Unless you really need autofocus and weather sealing, it's hard to justify getting into the S at that price point.

 

 

 

That was also my concern (I used Nikon D810 with 2 Otus lenses and still use it with teles, sold my Otus lenses), before I made the jump and bought my first Leica S (007). Problem of Otus is that they have no complete lens-line up. S lenses form a nearly complete family, are at the same level of optical quality, have a different character than Zeiss though (which I personally now prefer). The differences in sensor could be important if you do a lot of high contrast photos. I realized, that in my (mainly landscape and nature) practice it is not that relevant as I assumed (sure you have to know the characteristics of your sensor and expose for highlights). And there is a BIG, BIG difference which I did not realize before owning one: the colors and the acuity (big pixels with excellent lenses). Nikon D810 even with Otus cannot touch this. I am not looking back, because of this.

[Vieri]

That was also my concern (I used Nikon D810 with 2 Otus lenses and still use it with teles, sold my Otus lenses), before I made the jump and bought my first Leica S (007). Problem of Otus is that they have no complete lens-line up. S lenses form a nearly complete family, are at the same level of optical quality, have a different character than Zeiss though (which I personally now prefer). The differences in sensor could be important if you do a lot of high contrast photos. I realized, that in my (mainly landscape and nature) practice it is not that relevant as I assumed (sure you have to know the characteristics of your sensor and expose for highlights). And there is a BIG, BIG difference which I did not realize before owning one: the colors and the acuity (big pixels with excellent lenses). Nikon D810 even with Otus cannot touch this. I am not looking back, because of this.

 

 

I used a D800E years ago, in between two MF rigs (Phase - D800E - Pentax 645z) and I agree with the above. Mp isn't the only measure. When the D800E came out I thought "well, that's great: I can get 36mp in a much lighter, faster, better, weather-sealed package" and dropped my cumbersome, slow, non-sealed P65+. The loss in resolution was Ok, I could cope; but the character, the colours and the acuity weren't there. I am now shooting only Leica, SL and S (007), and despite the low(er) mp count compared to, respectively, the 35mm and MF competition, I can say that the results are stunning. Do I wish for a it more resolution? Sure. I think that a 40mp SL and a 60mp S would be perfect for landscape, and that existing lenses wouldn't have a problem with that kind of resolution. However, there are things that I need more than a resolution jump on the S, out of the top of my head:

 

- longer exposures (1 minute is very short for my work);

- exposure compensation directly available in A mode turning the now-unused wheel;

- more precision in the level (especially the one in the OVF);

 

All fundamental for me, and all doable with FW updates.

 

In a future model, besides higher res and the above FW changes, Id like to see:

 

- Two SD cards rather than mixed SD & CF: CF are a bit prehistoric, are physically bigger, with mixed cards you have to keep stock of two different cards, you need two different card holders, or a bigger one anyway, CF I don't use in any other camera, I need a card reader whereas SD can be used directly on my laptop, etc.

- Moveable AF point in the OVF (just one point is OK, but make it moveable);

- More precise AF point in vertical use;

- More resolution (60-70mp?)

 

Not much difference, but would make a great camera even better.

 

Best,

 

Vieri

[RVB]

This is what concerned me most about the S line. With the D810 and Otus, it makes the S a hard sell. Unless you really need autofocus and weather sealing, it's hard to justify getting into the S at that price point.

 

Or Leaf shutters.

[RVB]

I used a D800E years ago, in between two MF rigs (Phase - D800E - Pentax 645z) and I agree with the above. Mp isn't the only measure. When the D800E came out I thought "well, that's great: I can get 36mp in a much lighter, faster, better, weather-sealed package" and dropped my cumbersome, slow, non-sealed P65+. The loss in resolution was Ok, I could cope; but the character, the colours and the acuity weren't there. I am now shooting only Leica, SL and S (007), and despite the low(er) mp count compared to, respectively, the 35mm and MF competition, I can say that the results are stunning. Do I wish for a it more resolution? Sure. I think that a 40mp SL and a 60mp S would be perfect for landscape, and that existing lenses wouldn't have a problem with that kind of resolution. However, there are things that I need more than a resolution jump on the S, out of the top of my head:

 

- longer exposures (1 minute is very short for my work);

- exposure compensation directly available in A mode turning the now-unused wheel;

- more precision in the level (especially the one in the OVF);

 

All fundamental for me, and all doable with FW updates.

 

In a future model, besides higher res and the above FW changes, Id like to see:

 

- Two SD cards rather than mixed SD & CF: CF are a bit prehistoric, are physically bigger, with mixed cards you have to keep stock of two different cards, you need two different card holders, or a bigger one anyway, CF I don't use in any other camera, I need a card reader whereas SD can be used directly on my laptop, etc.

- Moveable AF point in the OVF (just one point is OK, but make it moveable);

- More precise AF point in vertical use;

- More resolution (60-70mp?)

 

Not much difference, but would make a great camera even better.

 

Best,

 

Vieri

Vieiri , what so you think about IBIS and multshot in the next S?

[ZHNL]

I don't have AF issues when shooting landscape at infinity....because I don't use AF in those situations. The DOF readout on the top LCD has been a game changer for me. I just select set the aperture to f/11 and dial in the focus manually until I achieve hyperfocal. Done and done. 

It has been a habit that I don't trust camera/computer whenever I have enough time. The cases you described is just like use manual focus lens (with DOF scale) with any system which is the way I prefer for landscape shots. I wish Leica S glass having distance DOF scale.  Since they are not focus by wire, I see no reason why not. 

 

I am sure many people will find the cases that you don't bring Tripod or don't have time to setup tripod. and light is not enough for decent shutter speed or you don't need small aperture DOF, You simply want a quick shot. Leica S glass is capable to shoot WO or a stop down to get image sharp cross frame but not their AF system. That is the case frustrate me. I no longer have the similar problem with Latest Nikon (D810), it has been very consistent AF over distance. 

 

I am not trying to push down Leica S. It is for FYI only, it is what it is and I still like it for what it is

[Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS]

I don't have AF issues when shooting landscape at infinity....because I don't use AF in those situations. The DOF readout on the top LCD has been a game changer for me. I just select set the aperture to f/11 and dial in the focus manually until I achieve hyperfocal. Done and done. 

 

Thats what I use and its the dogs :) 

[Vieri]

I don't have AF issues when shooting landscape at infinity....because I don't use AF in those situations. The DOF readout on the top LCD has been a game changer for me. I just select set the aperture to f/11 and dial in the focus manually until I achieve hyperfocal. Done and done. 

 

+1. A game changer indeed, extremely practical and works like a charm every time - except when you have the camera in horizontal position very high on a tripod. It would be great to be able to see that info on demand on the new info screen as well.

 

Best,

 

Vieri

[Jeff S]

+1. A game changer indeed, extremely practical and works like a charm every time - except when you have the camera in horizontal position very high on a tripod. It would be great to be able to see that info on demand on the new info screen as well.

 

Best,

 

Vieri

 

Sure, but wouldn't you take the time in that case to check LV focus magnification, etc?

 

Jeff

[Vieri]

Vieiri , what so you think about IBIS and multshot in the next S?

 

IBIS would be great in theory, I am just not sure about the feasibility of IBIS on such a large sensor though and I worry that perhaps the disadvantages would be more than what you'd gain.

 

Multishot could also be a good feature, of course.

 

That said, I doubt I would ever use either of them for my work, which is done on a tripod in the outdoors...

 

Best,

Vieri

[Vieri]

Sure, but wouldn't you take the time in that case to check LV focus magnification, etc?

 

Jeff

 

Jeff,

 

actually, in situation like the one I described I generally set up the distance before putting the camera on my tripod; if I need to change my composition without taking off the camera, for time-saving reasons (sunrises and sunsets do happen surprisingly quickly, as well know) I normally do what you say, either before or after a shot. However, having the possibility of switching on the distance feature on the back screen would save me some time, which again would be appreciated in situation where the light changes quickly and you need to act rapidly.

 

Best,

 

Vieri

[ZHNL]

Sure, but wouldn't you take the time in that case to check LV focus magnification, etc?

 

Jeff

+1, for S007, I would do LV every single time if the shot is important. I would not dare to rely on that info on top LCD. I don't even know how that info generated? Based on what? I mean the distance info. If it is based on its AF, then I don't trust it. If it is based on physical location of coupling of lens then it is depend on lens tolerance.

For S006, this is moot point.

[siddhaarta]

I don't have AF issues when shooting landscape at infinity....because I don't use AF in those situations. The DOF readout on the top LCD has been a game changer for me. I just select set the aperture to f/11 and dial in the focus manually until I achieve hyperfocal. Done and done. 

 

 

 

The DOF readout is a nice feature, I use it quite a lot. What I have observed though is that the internal settings are quite conservative (which circle of confusion do they apply?) and I would like to have a setting to dial it less conservative, considering the very tiny DOF of the MF lenses.

 

I also wonder why the lens spec sheets have different DOF scales than the readout, strange …. 

 

Leica should also include a programmable focus stacking option, (as P1 already has), in its next firmware update, should not be too difficult  ...

 

And yes the 60 sec limitation is a REAL PITA for landscape photographers, even worse than the 006 and S2 ….

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[siddhaarta]

I used a D800E years ago, in between two MF rigs (Phase - D800E - Pentax 645z) and I agree with the above. Mp isn't the only measure. When the D800E came out I thought "well, that's great: I can get 36mp in a much lighter, faster, better, weather-sealed package" and dropped my cumbersome, slow, non-sealed P65+. The loss in resolution was Ok, I could cope; but the character, the colours and the acuity weren't there. I am now shooting only Leica, SL and S (007), and despite the low(er) mp count compared to, respectively, the 35mm and MF competition, I can say that the results are stunning. Do I wish for a it more resolution? Sure. I think that a 40mp SL and a 60mp S would be perfect for landscape, and that existing lenses wouldn't have a problem with that kind of resolution. However, there are things that I need more than a resolution jump on the S, out of the top of my head:

 

- longer exposures (1 minute is very short for my work);

- exposure compensation directly available in A mode turning the now-unused wheel;

- more precision in the level (especially the one in the OVF);

 

All fundamental for me, and all doable with FW updates.

 

In a future model, besides higher res and the above FW changes, Id like to see:

 

- Two SD cards rather than mixed SD & CF: CF are a bit prehistoric, are physically bigger, with mixed cards you have to keep stock of two different cards, you need two different card holders, or a bigger one anyway, CF I don't use in any other camera, I need a card reader whereas SD can be used directly on my laptop, etc.

- Moveable AF point in the OVF (just one point is OK, but make it moveable);

- More precise AF point in vertical use;

- More resolution (60-70mp?)

 

Not much difference, but would make a great camera even better.

 

Best,

 

Vieri

Hi Vieri,

 

very good points on your wish list:

 

 - I fear, the 60 sec limitation will not go away if the sensor maker does not get it right in a future iteration, but it is a PITA for landscape photographers

 - The exposure compensation in A, they did finally implement it in the M, after a lot of client feed back, come on Leica, the S needs this, too

 

I would add to the wish list:

 

- Focus stacking tool, which automates the shooting sequence with variable AF steps (P1 has it)

- EFC, this is important, especially for focal plane MF

- More resolution on LCD screen (at least 1,3 MP), sharpness control in LV is really difficult, compare this to Nikon D810 or latest Canon EOS, no comparison

- Tilt screen …. my knees are hurting

 

Most of these features would be interesting for landscape and nature photographers, as me, but I have a strong feeling they don't think much about this group of photographers ...