Leica SL or Hasselblad X1D

[Jeff S]

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The Leica Sl is like a swiss army knife: extremly versatile. You can attach a huge range of lenses, not only Leica lenses. (And it is (in my opinion) the best camera for leica M-lenses.) Excellent viewfinder, weatcher sealed, very good video capability, an ergonomic user interface.

 

Together with the standard zoom, you have a tool that covers most of the photographers demand, including fast autofocus, image stabilisation, excellent near makro performance and weather sealed. Don't even think of a zoom like the 24-90 for the X1d, it would be huge.

 

Just my opinion

 

But it's not weather sealed to the same degree without native SL lenses, which are huge.  That's one of my key concerns in not having a range of smaller and lighter SL primes, even if slower.

 

Jeff

Edited November 25, 2016 by Jeff S

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[Jeff S]

 Don't even think of a zoom like the 24-90 for the X1d, it would be huge.

 

 

But the Hasselblad CEO did refute reports that there wouldn't be any zooms, and said that they were definitely on the roadmap.  He didn't comment on range or timing.

 

Jeff

[saxo]

But the Hasselblad CEO did refute reports that there wouldn't be any zooms, and said that they were definitely on the roadmap.  He didn't comment on range or timing.

 

Jeff

 

Nothing is known about size, range and speed.... and weight. Even Hasselblad can't beat physics.

 

A 50Mpx-camera without image stabilization: what is left of the 50Mpx without a tripod? What is the experience? Any tests yet?

 

Smaller lenses a already announced for the Leica SL

[Jeff S]

Everything awaits tests....my own tests...don't care about others.  I don't see a single small and light SL prime on the horizon and the recent roadmap goes out a long time.  My bet is that I'll be testing the X1D and Fuji GFX long before the SL system shrinks.  

 

Jeff

[steppenw0lf]

Yes, I agree that there's a distinct place for each of these excellent cameras. It's all a matter of how you intend to use them, the subject matter you prefer, and then personal preferences to do with handling and so on.

 

They are not different versions of equivalent cameras, they are different types of cameras and should be assessed as such.

 

Unfortunately, few of us can own all of them so we end up making choices between them on bases that are often inappropriate for other people.

 

 

And even if you own all of them, you cannot use all of them at the same time - as Neil D can certainly confirm.   

[jrp]

Well I had a play with one in the shop and, as I suspected, it is not yet ready for prime time.  I can't show you any pictures because it kept crashing when trying to write them to a perfectly normal Sandisk 95Mb/s card.  Perhaps I should have reformatted the card (which seems to take forever), but whatever, the camera should not crash.

 

The handling is very attractive.  The camera and 45/90mm lenses is light and easy to grip.  The main button on top feels a bit plasticky, although it is metal, presumably because the spring is not correctly tensioned.

 

The menus are fairly easy to navigate, but there is no Auto White Balance, and the focus point cannot be moved and focusing is quite slow (compared with SLRs / Mirrorless 35mm).  There is an AutoISO, but I did not have time to evaluate it.

 

Unfortunately, I cannot tell whether the new camera is worth it as I have no pics from it, no matter how wonderful the sensor.

 

All-in-all, the SL was a much more polished product when it emerged a year ago (in both hardware quality / feel and firmware terms) and the subsequent firmware updates have improved the usability, if not the image quality.  Yes, Leica has been slow (and slower than it hoped in releasing new lenses) but the SL is a very effective 2-lens solution to a lot of (what the Americans would call) "use cases".

 

That said, if Hasselblad hires some better firmware programmers, and the images out of camera are what pseudo-medium format promises, they will give Leica a run for their money in a certain niche.  Personally, I would put my money on Fuji, which has more resources, but their offering, with the same/similar sensor seems a bit bulkier.

[Vieri]

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...

 

All-in-all, the SL was a much more polished product when it emerged a year ago (in both hardware quality / feel and firmware terms) and the subsequent firmware updates have improved the usability, if not the image quality.  ...

 

 

Indeed. As well, I can say that image quality has very much improved with FW 2.0 on long exposures, which are now much cleaner than they were before (besides being much longer and selectable in M mode, not just B )

 

Best,

 

Vieri

Edited November 25, 2016 by Vieri

[Jeff S]

 

Well I had a play with one in the shop and, as I suspected, it is not yet ready for prime time. 

 

We should find out a bit more concerning real world performance (including weather protection) when Kevin Raber from LuLa returns from his recent trip to Antarctica, since he confirmed (via email) that he was taking along an X1D.

 

Jeff

[LD_50]

 

Unfortunately, I cannot tell whether the new camera is worth it as I have no pics from it, no matter how wonderful the sensor.

It's the handling, the user interface, the firmware, and the ecosystem that will differentiate the camera, not the IQ.

 

Images are available all over the web. The sensor also is in another Hasselblad, a Pentax, Phase, etc. I don't think IQ is going to be much of a surprise if you do any research. Perhaps the lenses need evaluation but I would expect nothing less than excellent quality with slower primes.

[Jeff S]

It's the handling, the user interface, the firmware, and the ecosystem that will differentiate the camera, not the IQ.

 

Images are available all over the web. The sensor also is in another Hasselblad, a Pentax, Phase, etc. I don't think IQ is going to be much of a surprise if you do any research. Perhaps the lenses need evaluation but I would expect nothing less than excellent quality with slower primes.

 

 

I agree that these days, IQ is in general more than sufficient for wonderful photos across many camera brands and models, even of varying sensor size.

 

However, on a detailed level, different manufacturers do in fact achieve different results even using the same basic sensor, since there are tweaks based on their proprietary specifications, along with other differences in camera software and implementation.  And lenses can affect results.

 

More importantly, though, internet pics never tell the whole story.  And even with prints, each person will get different results based on myriad factors that comprise an overall disciplined camera to print (and display) workflow.  The only results that matter are the ones that you can achieve making your own pics.....and prints, if that's the goal.

 

Jeff

Edited November 25, 2016 by Jeff S

[LD_50]

As I said images are available. Raws from another Hasselblad with the same sensor are available. You can PP and print as you would your own shots.

 

IQ won't be a differentiating factor for this camera unless there are some sort of bugs in firmware.

[IkarusJohn]

When looking at photos (my own or others), 90% of my appreciation is composition, in the broadest sense - subject, framing, tonal range, exposure, focussing and out of focus/background treatment. This is entirely the vision and choice of the photographer - I may be slow but it takes me ages to develop a relationship with my equipment where I can reliably get the look I want; and hard work.

 

Sure, the feel of the gear also gives me pleasure, but that's not really apparent in the image.

 

I have rarely looked at or liked an image because of its resolution. In fact many of my favourite images were taken by great photographers using relatively low res film cameras.

 

I have to concede though that there is a look in my medium format images that I love. The square format, maybe. Surely it is more than just resolution? It is easy to emulate the same format and field of view in 35mm ... Over on the NZ landscapes thread, Nikau has posted a fantastic image of Karekare Beach which would make any photographer proud.

 

Much as I love the look of the X1D, I don't think it's for me. Other than looking good, being a Hasselblad (which I enjoy using) and having that fabulous sensor, the files will be huge and I just don't think it gives me more than I have already. I can print as big as I want with 18MP and 24MP, and the Leica sensors and lenses are quite adequate for my needs - more than adequate ...

[jrp]

I agree that the ecosystem is an important factor, but the camera is pleasing to handle; not too heavy.  So, particularly for ascetics who avoid zooms, it is an attractive theoretical proposition.  Theoretical because the firmware seems surprisingly immature.

[thighslapper]

When looking at photos (my own or others), 90% of my appreciation is composition, in the broadest sense - subject, framing, tonal range, exposure, focussing and out of focus/background treatment. This is entirely the vision and choice of the photographer - I may be slow but it takes me ages to develop a relationship with my equipment where I can reliably get the look I want; and hard work.

 

Sure, the feel of the gear also gives me pleasure, but that's not really apparent in the image.

 

I have rarely looked at or liked an image because of its resolution. In fact many of my favourite images were taken by great photographers using relatively low res film cameras.

 

I have to concede though that there is a look in my medium format images that I love. The square format, maybe. Surely it is more than just resolution? It is easy to emulate the same format and field of view in 35mm ... Over on the NZ landscapes thread, Nikau has posted a fantastic image of Karekare Beach which would make any photographer proud.

 

Much as I love the look of the X1D, I don't think it's for me. Other than looking good, being a Hasselblad (which I enjoy using) and having that fabulous sensor, the files will be huge and I just don't think it gives me more than I have already. I can print as big as I want with 18MP and 24MP, and the Leica sensors and lenses are quite adequate for my needs - more than adequate ...

Yup ......

 

99% of the issues with camera equipment are generated behind the viewfinder.

 

I am increasingly of the opinion that high end camera gear is more use psychologically than practically.

 

Image appreciation is entirely subjective and subject to delusional bias and a whole host of other factors.

 

Buy whatever camera makes you a happy bunny ...... and I'm sure it is THAT factor that contributes most to what you achieve with it.  

[IkarusJohn]

Yup ......

 

99% of the issues with camera equipment are generated behind the viewfinder.

 

I am increasingly of the opinion that high end camera gear is more use psychologically than practically.

 

Image appreciation is entirely subjective and subject to delusional bias and a whole host of other factors.

 

Buy whatever camera makes you a happy bunny ...... and I'm sure it is THAT factor that contributes most to what you achieve with it.

 

Very true.

[Jeff S]

Indeed, the most important tools are between the ears.

 

Unlike many here, my GAS days are long gone.  After shooting film and printing since the early 70's, my first digital camera in 2009 was the M8.2.  Since then my only camera purchase was the M240.  The same 3 (once 4) M lenses have carried me through those 9 years, and those mostly came from my film days.  

 

The gear is a now means to an end for me.....but it still has to be a pleasure to use and meet my specific style and preferences.  As I've written, the main reason I'm considering adding a camera is because I want to shoot wider and longer than the M easily provides, which for me is in the 28-90 range.  I filled my needs in the film days by using SLRs, medium format and large format gear.  In my retirement, I no longer want a bulky system (although the S was tempting), so the current wave of digital small camera/large sensor cameras has appeal. It is in that vein that I will test the X1D and GFX.  And the SL would have been on the short list except for the lack of small, light primes.

 

Besides my own work, much of my joy comes from looking at photographs (and other art) from others.  I've collected vintage prints and photo books since the 80's and still get enormous pleasure, and learning, from looking at and studying others' works.  Most of those marvelous prints were made with relatively modest gear.

 

Life is so much simpler without all the gear chasing.  I don't like the testing process, but it's the only way for me to get a good handle on things, from camera to print.  So I look forward to making a decision and getting back to forgetting about gear again.  That said, I won't rush the process....the M still works fine.  

 

Jeff

[Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS]

Indeed, the most important tools are between the ears.

 

Unlike many here, my GAS days are long gone. After shooting film and printing since the early 70's, my first digital camera in 2009 was the M8.2. Since then my only camera purchase was the M240. The same 3 (once 4) M lenses have carried me through those 9 years, and those mostly came from my film days.

 

The gear is a now means to an end for me.....but it still has to be a pleasure to use and meet my specific style and preferences. As I've written, the main reason I'm considering adding a camera is because I want to shoot wider and longer than the M easily provides, which for me is in the 28-90 range. I filled my needs in the film days by using SLRs, medium format and large format gear. In my retirement, I no longer want a bulky system (although the S was tempting), so the current wave of digital small camera/large sensor cameras has appeal. It is in that vein that I will test the X1D and GFX. And the SL would have been on the short list except for the lack of small, light primes.

 

Besides my own work, much of my joy comes from looking at photographs (and other art) from others. I've collected vintage prints and photo books since the 80's and still get enormous pleasure, and learning, from looking at and studying others' works. Most of those marvelous prints were made with relatively modest gear.

 

Life is so much simpler without all the gear chasing. I don't like the testing process, but it's the only way for me to get a good handle on things, from camera to print. So I look forward to making a decision and getting back to forgetting about gear again. That said, I won't rush the process....the M still works fine.

 

Jeff

im the same as you Jeff

You can look at the 21mm sumerlux........ fantastic lense for the M and also the 90mm AOP which I also had and used to good success. That would fill that gap for you.

 

Neil

[Jeff S]

im the same as you Jeff

You can look at the 21mm sumerlux........ fantastic lense for the M and also the 90mm AOP which I also had and used to good success. That would fill that gap for you.

 

Neil

No, it wouldn't.  I already use 28-90 on the M without problem, using traditional RF focusing; I don't use the EVF or external finder.  Going wider or longer requires another system for my needs.  And I want one with robust weather sealing.  The 90 APO, btw, is too large for my tastes....the Macro-Elmar is more like it.  After 35 years or so with the M system, I think I've got a pretty good handle on it.

 

As far as gear chasing, and assessment process, you know you're on the extreme opposite end of the spectrum.  It's all good....whatever works.

 

Jeff

Edited November 26, 2016 by Jeff S

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[Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS]

I'm in the process of moving back to Phuket Thailand after seven fantastic years in Kuala Lumpur. My beautiful home in Phuket which we lived in for 17 years is in need of some TLC so this will put a hold on my GAS for now, it will also give me time to see the reviews from commoners like me what this new X1D is really like. If all the right ups are as good as many make it out to be (@Peter especially) then I may dip my feet into the Hasselblad digital X1D in March next year...............This break will also give me a chance to fall in love with my S007again (all three lenses and now the body failure), has had me on the verge of divorce with the S system from day one. Had it not been for the amazing pictures that I have managed to capture with this system, she would have been long gone by now.

 

My S007 body has now arrived in Berlin and is hopefully getting fixed as we speak, I've got two more weeks in Nigeria before I get home, so hopefully the wiz kids in Germany will quickly find out WTF is wrong with my 3 month old S007 and I will have my own S body back and be able to hand the loner back.

I'm actually shooting more film these days so I will still get my Hasselblad kick with that

later

 

Neil

[EoinC]

OK, just go on fussing about size - but this is not really crucial.

But more important is that it is another camera - another 10000 bucks - for nothing really different.

As your photos just showed.

You need to publish them in Flickr or another high-resolution place to perhaps show a small difference. Currently I have not seen any photos that really showed a difference.

 

So IF I would make prints wider than 1m, yes, then it would be a viable option for me (no doubt). But I am not and most others are also not - the business is in the internet and not in printing (for 99%). And for amateurs there is also no need for this print size - unless they are very rich, they simply run quickly out of wall space.

 

Ok. you can say it is cheap because it is only 10000 and not 30000 anymore. But this is simply a distortion of reality.

 

And yes, I agree: If there were small Leica SL primes  (not miniature, but only small, about 300-500g like most ordinary prime lenses), then very few people would consider the X1D primes attractive. (Leica does not really understand this, but not important).

I'm not sure I got the memo on you being the one who decides what is important for me. I may have misplaced it.