ebay - a cautionary tale

[London Lad]

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Believe it or not, technically, had you been in possession of the lens you could have kept it until the outcome of any court case but you could not have sold it.

 

There is an argument to say that you could not have even used it but we are getting very technical here.

 

Suppose the goods were a vintage car and you had spent thousands on having it restored to concurs condition before you found it was stolen, would you have been so happy to hand it over?

[jonoslack]

Believe it or not, technically, had you been in possession of the lens you could have kept it until the outcome of any court case but you could not have sold it.

 

There is an argument to say that you could not have even used it but we are getting very technical here.

 

Suppose the goods were a vintage car and you had spent thousands on having it restored to concurs condition before you found it was stolen, would you have been so happy to hand it over?

Hi Graham

Absolutely not - I hadn't thought of that situation. I would have been pretty hacked off if Leica had charged me for the 6 bit mod first as well. I'm not terribly happy at having had to buy a lens hood and pay for the transport to Leica either!

All fascinating stuff - as I've already bought a (new) replacement, I just hope that the guy does come up with the refund!

[wlaidlaw]

Hi Wilson

Thanks for the reply - it's all really interesting. But it seems that both the original owner and I would have legal rights to the lens - so, if one went to court on that basis, presumably the court would decide that the original owner owned it (I would).

 

Jonathan,

 

If you still had the lens in your possession, the likelihood is that the courts would decide you could keep the lens. However as you have surrendered it to a third party (Leica UK) it would be a moot point as to who would eventually get the lens. It would probably depend on what the judge had for breakfast. As all parties would have to retain solicitors and council, I leave to you to decide who the winners would be - hint: not you or the original owner. On the assumption that you get the refund from the dealer, you have probably had a lucky escape. Remember Jarndyce v Jarndyce (Bleak House).

 

Wilson

[jonoslack]

Jonathan,

 

If you still had the lens in your possession, the likelihood is that the courts would decide you could keep the lens. However as you have surrendered it to a third party (Leica UK) it would be a moot point as to who would eventually get the lens. It would probably depend on what the judge had for breakfast. As all parties would have to retain solicitors and council, I leave to you to decide who the winners would be - hint: not you or the original owner. On the assumption that you get the refund from the dealer, you have probably had a lucky escape. Remember Jarndyce v Jarndyce (Bleak House).

 

Wilson

Well, as you're aware, I'm no legal eagle, but I'm no fool either, and it was always obvious that my best bet was to be nice to the seller (notice his name doesn't appear anywhere). I'm very well aware that a ten minute friendly phone call is the best answer for everyone (except the solicitors we would have hired).

 

Bleak house is really one of my favorite books - I hadn't thought of it in this context, but of course I should have!

 

Incidentally, I hear that your thinking of meeting up with Tim to compare lenses - don't miss the opportunity - and visiting the delightful Bart at HA Baker is another must!

[Philinflash]

...

 

This should be more than a "buyer beware" issue. Especially for eBay sellers, they need to ensure they actually own the goods, since they're often working across borders.

 

So I'd definitely talk with eBay if you haven't already. Practices like this could hurt their model a lot.

 

...

 

I understand that e-Bay is very interested in policing theft on its system. They may actually have more clout with your undisclosed seller than would you.

[wlaidlaw]

 

Incidentally, I hear that your thinking of meeting up with Tim to compare lenses - don't miss the opportunity - and visiting the delightful Bart at HA Baker is another must!

 

Jonathan,

 

My credit card has had a fair amount of exercise over the years at H.A.Baker, since I bought the original Fuji/Digilux Leica in 1998 from Stuart Bean. I agree that Bart is now doing an excellent job there. Unfortunately for my bank balance, it is a bit convenient, being just over 5 minutes south of where I live, when in the UK.

 

Wilson

[London Lad]

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Off topic but worth mentioning, I have recently had really exceptional service from H A Baker via post.

[jonoslack]

Off topic but worth mentioning, I have recently had really exceptional service from H A Baker via post.

 

Hi Graham

Glad to hear it - Bart's trying hard to make them a real contender. You should go there, it's such an odd place - and you might even meet Mr Ashley coming out!

[Chuck Hatcher]

I understand that e-Bay is very interested in policing theft on its system. They may actually have more clout with your undisclosed seller than would you.

 

I hope that is true, however my experience with eBay's apathy if not blatant enthusiasm for the trade in counterfeit SanDisk memory cards leaves me a bit skeptical.

[London Lad]

I hope that is true, however my experience with eBay's apathy if not blatant enthusiasm for the trade in counterfeit SanDisk memory cards leaves me a bit skeptical.

 

I have had exactly the same experience with the same product, in fact its still going on 3 months down the line.

 

They seem to always apply their rule to favour the high volume seller, which of course is where their money comes from.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Update from Solms Germany:

 

Hello Mr Mancuso,

*

We do not maintain a database of the stolen material anymore, because it was not 100% serviced from our side and we are working on a users service page that is not only there to take care of problems (not only consisting in “lost leicas” and “have your leica repaired”!) but offer a number of users benefits.

*

I hope this makes sense for you.

*

Best regards,

*

JJ Viau

*

Leica Camera AG/*Internet Manager /

Oskar-Barnack-Straße 11 / D-35606 Solms

[AlanJW]

Update from Solms Germany:

 

Hello Mr Mancuso,

*

We do not maintain a database of the stolen material anymore, because it was not 100% serviced from our side and we are working on a users service page that is not only there to take care of problems (not only consisting in “lost leicas” and “have your leica repaired”!) but offer a number of users benefits.

*

I hope this makes sense for you.

*

Best regards,

*

JJ Viau

*

Leica Camera AG/*Internet Manager /

Oskar-Barnack-Straße 11 / D-35606 Solms

 

If Leica doesn't maintain a database of stolen equipment, how did they know that the lens in question here was stolen?

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Alan it sounds like they did have one but it was not maintained enough. Sounds like they want to do a combination of one for users though which would be handy. That is what it sounds like but I could be wrong here . Also this is from Solms and not the UK so they may have been doing things different

[jonoslack]

Alan it sounds like they did have one but it was not maintained enough. Sounds like they want to do a combination of one for users though which would be handy. That is what it sounds like but I could be wrong here . Also this is from Solms and not the UK so they may have been doing things different

Alan - Guy

This is from Leica UK - nothing to do with Solms - I'm not certain, but the impression I got was that the guy told them that the items had been stolen, and they then checked up when I sent the lens in. So it would be a UK list, not a German one.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

That is what i was thinking also Jono. But looks like Solms is working on something , just not ready. This e-mail is from there lead web designer in Solms

[jonoslack]

That is what i was thinking also Jono. But looks like Solms is working on something , just not ready. This e-mail is from there lead web designer in Solms

My golly Guy, you do know the people that count

While you're talking to them, tell 'em that they have to have finer quality (less compressed) jpgs.

 

Incidentally, my new silver 35 'cron arrived this morning - I've been putting it through it's paces and it looks pretty good to me (can't detect ANY focus shift - go figure)

[wlaidlaw]

I think we just have to accept that eBay has the same moral standards of a polecat that is extant in much of the rest of the auction trade. I went to view a "Leica model II" at a nearby auction house. I told the assistant showing me the camera that it was a fake from a FED 2 and not even a very good fake at that. I showed him the many salient features, which identified it as a fake. He rushed off to tell his boss. I went to the auction the next day, as there was a mountain Elmar 105mm that I could have been interested in if the price did not get silly (it did). To my amazement the fake was announced, still as a good condition genuine Leica model II. I stood up and explained that I had already told the auction house that this was not a genuine Leica but a poorly done fake made from a Ukranian FED model 2. Even the engraved logo on the top plate was wrong and squint. Red faces all round and the item was hurriedly withdrawn from sale. I suspect it quietly went on auction again as a Leica II at their next sale. They are now out of business.

 

Wilson

[leicabug]

I am suprised to learn that Leica maintain database for stolen Leicas. Should I send Leica the list of the serial numbers of all Leicas I own? To USA or Germany?

[stunsworth]

I am suprised to learn that Leica maintain database for stolen Leicas. Should I send Leica the list of the serial numbers of all Leicas I own?

 

I'd wait until they were stolen ;-)

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[wparsonsgisnet]

I am suprised to learn that Leica maintain database for stolen Leicas. Should I send Leica the list of the serial numbers of all Leicas I own? To USA or Germany?

 

I think the poster said that Leica was not currently doing this but might be thinking of doing something like this.

 

I would think Leica would only care about the numbers if your cameras were stolen. By all means insure them -- that's a good use for the serial numbers. You may be able to get a rider on your homeowners insurance, by which you can insure the cameras for specific values. For this purpose, I get my Leica's appraised every couple of years.

 

BecaIf you use your cameras commercially, you should probably carry a commercial policy for them.