Is the M8 the Right Choice for me? [Or: Am I right for the M8? :) ]

[burbank@ntnation.com]

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I have been lurking on this forum for about a month, as well as doing research on the M8 on the Internet. I am close to deciding on purchasing an M8, but I would appreciate some feedback from the members of this forum (who, in my novice estimation, seem to be the most knowledgable about the M8 among the various photo discussion boards out there).

 

I am attracted to the M8 for three main reasons:

 

- size of the body and average lens available

- high quality of the images

- high build quality and reliability

 

My two main concerns are:

 

- speed, shot to shot

- difficulty of focus/using a rangefinder.

 

I should tell you something about my experience.... I am an amateur with no illusions about being at the level of a pro photographer in terms of skill, knowledge, or experience. I am purely a digital shooter -- while I shot film SLRs many years ago, I didn't start shooting significantly until DSLRs became prevalent.

 

I mostly photograph three types of things:

 

- architecture (specifically certain types of buildings and architectural detailing -- again, purely for pleasure, not professionally) -- also while on vacation is some fairly rugged and tough places (e.g. parts of Africa, Asia, and South America)

 

- gymnastics and a few other individual sports

 

- people [mostly my kids ]

 

I don't believe the M8 is an appropriate camera for doing sporting events, where fast auto-focus enables me to "get the shot". For this, my Nikon D200 is probably better -- although am I wrong in thinking this?

 

The size of the M8 is so attractive because many times I have not carried either my Nikon D200 or D70 because they are simply too big and weight too much to fit in my backpack. I'd be looking at having an M8 and one lens mounted with me on days when I reasonably expect to go to where I'd like to take photos of buildings, or while on vacation with my family.

 

My Nikons have pretty much been tanks -- weathered a couple of dust storms that probably would have sandblasted the equivalent Canon products, and survived some very, very humid conditions -- and still kept shooting. During traveling, I am sometimes not anywhere near where I can get something serviced or cleaned, etc., so reliability under tough conditions is important to me.

 

I understand the pricing issues -- Leica is not inexpensive While I am by no means wealthy, I understand quality and the cost of it, and am prepared to spend the dollars necessary if a Leica M8 fits my needs.

 

(As an aside, I have a Dlux 3 as a simple point-and-shoot -- it's what's currently in my backpack when either Nikon is too heavy or too bulky and am pretty happy with it -- but somewhat frustrated by how slow it is between shots and the quality difference between it and what I can do with my Nikons).

 

And finally, I have to say this: I have NEVER used a rangefinder before.... ever. Neither a film nor a digital one. One of my concerns frankly is whether I can focus quickly enough with it to get photos of people (kids move fast, trust me) -- for architectural work or landscape/scenery, I think that would be fine.

 

I am, however, willing to invest time and effort in learning to use a rangefinder -- so if an M8 would work for me, I don't expect that I would be an expert upon opening the box it arrives in -- I'm ok with spending a few months shooting and learning, and longer, if necessary, to get reasonably proficient at using it.

 

I apologize for such a long, rambling post I would appreciate feedback on my questions and concerns ... not just necessarily a "yes, buy it" or "no, don't even think about it" but if anyone has specific comments on things I have said being right or wrong, or perhaps even other questions that I should consider, please let me know.

 

My plan is to get as much feedback and ask as many questions on this forum as I can over the next week or two, and then see if I can either (a) rent a Leica M8 for a week and shoot with it (I realize this may not be possible, even in New York City, where there are a number of dealers) or ( purchase an M8 from a dealer with a good return policy and/or reasonable restocking fee with the understanding that I would return the M8 if I found it not suitable.

 

Thank you once again to everyone who takes the time to read this post and/or replies

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I think the best advice at this very moment is run to a local camera store and play with a RF camera . You really need to see if you have the feel for focusing and framing and if it fits , right now everything else would be secondary. I would see if you like to use it first and get that part in your head so that understanding of it is clear. hard to say if you would or would not some folks hate it , so really i would do that fist and see if it feels good. i mean feel by sense , vision and and your abilities. there simple cameras but knowing what your stepping into with feel is very very important, the rest of it is easy. The quality is great and all that but it is a individual wow i like this setup thing first or not. We can all tell you how nice it is and what is not nice but i would strongly recommend that first.

 

If your in NYC than check out Tamarkin , there really nice folks and should have a M8 in stock and probably a demo as well

[george +]

Welcome to the Forum. Guy is right, if it feels good, take it from there.

 

I have learned photography on viewfinder cameras of the 30-s and 40-s and Leicas with built in rangefinders were a small miracle - the M3 with a big integrated rangefinder was a big miracle. Needless to say I could never get accustomed to the flexible but bulky SLR-s though my son swore by Nikons since the early 70-s.

 

In the meantime, I got accustomed to point and shoot Digiluxes, I had just about all of them. And kept praying for a digital M. Of course I like it a lot and would not go away from it. But it is a re-learning experience after all that pointingandshooting and it takes time.

 

Try it; I hope you will like it. There are many tricks to cut through the difficulties of focusing. For kids I mostly use zone focusing - it often works. Yes I know kids move fast - what is amazing is how much faster grandchildren seem to move around than their parents ever did.

[mikeadams]

Two things about rangefinder focus. First, after a few hours with my M8 I found that I could focus perfectly on moving people, birds, etc. Usually when you are shooting at a particulat location you are moving the lever within a very short range, so it's fast. Also with the M8, you have the wonderful wheel that allows you to "dial" quick extreme close ups of what you have shot so you look at what you have done and decide.

 

On the other hand, while I think my Nikon D-200 is very good, sometimes the auto focus puts something in focus I didn't want it focus, but I still use the camera and a zoom for stage plays and other uses. You need more than one camera.

 

By the way, last year I gave my D-lux 2 to my wife and she uses it solely as a movie camera, a feature it does very well.

 

Mike

http://www.mikeadams.org

[larry]

Burbank,

 

I agree with Guy and George, rangefinders aren't for everyone. There are some people in this forum whose first rangefinder experience is with the M8 (I believe Guy is one of them) and they're completely sold on the experience. However, there are some folks who view the idiosyncrasies of the M8 -- such as somewhat imprecise framing accuracy, lack of autofocus and limited menu choices -- as design flaws. You need to decide for yourself whether you'll view these as limitations, or accept the camera for what it is. Absolutely try one before you buy one.

 

Larry

[stefanhartwig]

As far as rentals go, I believe Photo Village (NYC) rents M8s. It's not cheap though. Something like $450 a week!

 

That being said, Rich (from PV) is really cool. I buy stuff from him even though I'm (way) out of the area.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

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Burbank,

 

I agree with Guy and George, rangefinders aren't for everyone. There are some people in this forum whose first rangefinder experience is with the M8 (I believe Guy is one of them) and they're completely sold on the experience. However, there are some folks who view the idiosyncrasies of the M8 -- such as somewhat imprecise framing accuracy, lack of autofocus and limited menu choices -- as design flaws. You need to decide for yourself whether you'll view these as limitations, or accept the camera for what it is. Absolutely try one before you buy one.

 

Larry

 

 

Correct first time is with the M8, i love it but like i said some folks just can't get the hang of it .

[burbank@ntnation.com]

Wow, I am so impressed with everyone's fast and thoughtful responses! Thank you so much

 

I definitely plan on visiting both Tamarkin and Photo Village -- they are both within walking distance (I know.... I am very lucky!) for me. I wasn't aware that PV rented M8s.... even at $450 for a week, I'd be happy to do it because as many have commented already in this thread, I know that I have to actually use an M8 for a little while to understand whether or not its the right choice for me. However, my questions here are really "homework" so that I know the right questions to ask, and the right things to consider when I actually have one in my hands.

[burbank@ntnation.com]

Burbank,

 

,,,, However, there are some folks who view the idiosyncrasies of the M8 -- such as somewhat imprecise framing accuracy, lack of autofocus and limited menu choices -- as design flaws. You need to decide for yourself whether you'll view these as limitations, or accept the camera for what it is....

 

Larry

 

That reminds me.... of the "design flaws" that I am aware of, these are my thoughts so far:

 

- The infrared sensitivity issue: I have no problem using IR filters; besides I don't shoot a lot of polyester anyway Seriously though, has anyone been impacted negatively by this issue, or am I being too cavalier in dismissing it?

 

- Limited Menu choices -- that seems less a design flaw and more of a design DECISION. In that, I mean that the M8 is designed to be a more elegant and simpler design -- something I appreciate wading through multiple levels of a D200 menu sometimes Again, am I being too simplistic in this regard?

 

- The framing issue -- i don't see this being an issue either.... I'm happy to crop in Photoshop; it seems some experience with the camera would give you a rough idea of what will be in the frame given the lens you are using and the framelines. Isn't this true?

 

Did I miss any of the design issues? Anything else I should be aware of in this area?

[burbank@ntnation.com]

.... On the other hand, while I think my Nikon D-200 is very good, sometimes the auto focus puts something in focus I didn't want it focus, but I still use the camera and a zoom for stage plays and other uses. You need more than one camera....

 

Yes, that's exactly why I am looking at the Leica -- AF on the D200 and the D70 are great (especially the D200 -- very fast, even with bigger lenses). But the problem is that sometimes I get an autofocus of a perfect sharp hand.... but I really was focusing on the person's face I find that in fast-moving action, my AF sometimes simply fails because of this. Now, perhaps this is a limitation caused by my skills or inexperience, but I don't think so (feel free to correct me on this point, I'm not sensitive ).

 

So if I liked the M8, I would still keep my Nikon glass... I would sell my D70, and keep the D200 to take with me to specific sports events (I basically shoot the events on behalf of the event organizers and for fun... purely as a volunteer, I'm not a pro, as I mentioned).

[burbank@ntnation.com]

One more expansion on a question I asked, if I may:

 

How do people here specifically feel about reliability, especially under harsh conditions? I recently saw some great photos taken by someone on a trip to Namibia in Africa... and they mentioned taking TWO Leica M bodies.

 

Ouch... that's an expensive bag that I hope he didn't check on the flight

 

When I travel now, I take two Nikon bodies (D70 and D200) -- I have never had one fail, but if it happened, I wouldn't be dead... I'd have the other one as a backup. I use the D70 when I can get away with it and the D200 when I can't or I have more room in my bag/backpack.

 

I would be taking the M8 to some very environmentally hostile places in terms of wet and dirt (and heat... not sure if that matters).

 

How do people here feel about the reliability of the M8 in these circumstances?

[ericperlberg]

As Guy says, the way you work with a rangefinder is v. different from an SLR. Mainly, without autofocus, you have to get a feel for how to work the little rangefinder patch in the centre of the viewfinder.

 

First, I think you've worked out the strengths of the M8. I switched from a Canon 1DsMkII and I'm really pleased that I did. I still have my 1dsII but almost never use it. The weight differences are enormous and the Leica lenses and even the Voigtlander and Zeiss lenses are all excellent and are certainly noticeably better than Canon prime "L" lenses. I'm one of those who believe that Leica lenses have a certain magical quality, a 3D "roundness" and a sophisticated drawing ability and subtle tonalities that I know my Canon lenses don't have, though I'm not at all suggesting that the Canon top end stuff is anything other than very nice.

 

You don't say what type of architecture shooting you do. I do a lot of urban landscape work (link below) and the widest lens I have for my m8 is my voigtlander 15mm which has approx a 21mm field of view on the M8. Wider than that is hard to get for the M8, there is a 12mm (ie, approx 16mm fov) voigtlander lens. If you need wider than that in your architectural work then think twice about the M8. You can learn much more about the M8 and all the lenses available for it at reidreviews.com. It costs a few dollars to join but its as close as you can get to solid info IMO. It's good value for money in terms of answering your questions.

 

Shot to shot shooting speed being adequate is not easy to answer. I think the M8 does 2-3 frames/second in RAW when set on the Continuous shooting mode. Whether or not that's fast enough for you, is hard for us to guess. It's certainly as fast or faster than Winogrand or Cartier-Bresson or Eggleston or Friedlander or Nan Goldin could physically wind their film Leicas. A sports photographer or papperazzi would not be happy with "only" 2-3 frames/second which is about the speed of your D70 but slower than your D200. But you say you're willing to use your Nikon for your sports work. I would think the M8 would be fast enough for snapping your kids. How often when you shoot your kids with the D70 do you find it too slow? The M8 would be similar.

 

Not dissimilar to autofocus in SLRs you sometimes will be able to focus straight away and other times (at least in my experience) you have to find a verticle or horizontal edge of something in the same plane of focus to see the effects of focusing. It may take more than a few minutes in a camera shop to feel totally comfortable with this but after awhile it becomes quick to do and second nature (bring the focus knob to the left for nearer focus, to the right for further focus). There are times (low light for example) when rangefinder focusing is actually quicker than autofocus. Another advantage in low light is that the Leica viewfinder is big and bright. As good as my Canon 1dsII with a 1.4 lens at least, if not better.

 

But you do have to get used to the frameline issue. Accurate framing is tricky on a rangefinder compared to your DSLRs. It's not impossible but quirky to be sure. It won't matter when your subject is in the centre of the action and the centre of your lens but if you're really composing the shot as you want it, you'll need to learn from your mistakes in framing. Fortunately (despite what others say here) the worst problem you'll have is having to do a bit of cropping in photoshop or other software to get the framing you wanted. You won't be in the situation with the M8 where you inadvertantly don't get the whole image within the frameline. This may sound off-putting but in my experience its something you adjust to, like walking on a ship at sea or switching cars.

 

Leica M series cameras are an especially tactile tool. I do a lot of shooting and there's just a really nice feel to using this camera. To me, that counts. To others its a laughable indulgence. Cie La Vie.

 

I feel my M8 is almost as portable as a point and shoot. It's a tad bigger and a wee bit bulkier and heavier. I only carry the one lens on the camera most of the time (a 28 f2.8, I think its excellent and its so tiny). My Leica with lens and battery weights a few grammes less than your D200 body without its battery and no lens.

 

Obviously I can't answer the question of whether or not you'd be happy with one but I too had only shot digital before this and had only shot with DSLRs and point and shoots and I think the M8 is brilliant. The file quality it produces frequently takes my breath away.

[ericperlberg]

I guess you were posting as I was writing...

 

Can't answer the environmental question... you probably know that someone took an M8 to Antarctica (luminous-landscape.com search for M8) and had trouble. Someone else took an M8 to the Namibian dessert and not had problems. Someone else took an M8 apart and reported that the environmental integrity seemed quite good with the shutter release being the weakest part of the camera from a rain point of view. tricky.

 

Menus...

I wish that ISO was physically selectable. The Leica menu section has a main menu which has many settings which aren't changed often and the a "SET" menu with fewer options including ISO, EV and User Profile. You can set up 4 profiles, eg, a profile each for different ISO speeds or lens detection. It's a bit of a mashup. I wish there were dials for EV and ISO but there aren't. To me, having to go into a menu, even if its a top level menu item to change the EV or ISO is a bad workflow issue. But its not a critical negative IMO, just a minor annoyance.

[Guest Bernd Banken]

Burbank

IMHO the M8 plus glass is to expensive for a test of RF happiness. There are some here which bought a M8 and disappeared due to the RF issue.

 

My road map for the training and use of the Leica RF was the buy of a used M7 plus some used lenses. Coming from NIKON SLRs I didn't trust the "easy" way of getting comfortable with the M8 in terms of fast focussing and the "spirit" of the old masters.

 

Wearing glasses it was for me another decision what magnification the finder of my M should have, you see there are a lot of things to bear in mind.

 

After several months of using this M7 beside my D200 I must say that I'm not so comfortable with the M especially with lenses longer than 50mm.

You must know that using a RF of the M is like looking through a window of normal glass in which the lines for longer lenses make the tiny frame window smaller and smaller.

But you must focus with the patch in the middle and compose and, and....

 

As you mentioned you want to make pics of your children. Is their age under ten, please use your D200:)

 

My hint for not burning money as a member in the german forum did last week:

 

Go to your dealer, buy a cheap Bessa and a 35mm Voigtlander PancakeII lens and ten rolls of Ilford XP2 (B+W C41 Colorprocess film), go out and shoot. After this ten rolls you know what we all told you and then you can buy or forget the M8.

If you buy the M the VC 35mm could stay as a good lens....

 

A lot of people here recommend the M8 but you must know that they are Super-Pros who could photograph a car race in Daytona with a pin hole camera with just one limitation: not with slide film, it will be b+w!

 

Cheers

Bernd

[Shootist]

One more expansion on a question I asked, if I may:

 

How do people here specifically feel about reliability, especially under harsh conditions? I recently saw some great photos taken by someone on a trip to Namibia in Africa... and they mentioned taking TWO Leica M bodies.

 

 

I have had my M8 for 4 months and in that time I have shot about 4000 images. My M8 has never had a problem that was related to the electronic. No glitches of any kind that stop me from getting the shot. Yes there was/is some minor playback inconsistencies but all in alll if functioned without a problem.

That's not to say that others haven't had problems. I just sent my M8 in because of some brass colored spots on what looks like the underside of the cover glass and it had a crack in the body case near the base plate latch.

As fas as harsh condition. I don't know. I don't like to be out in harsh condition for myself let alone with expensive equipment.

I have had it in damp/humid conditions without a problem. But whether I'd use it in a downpour is doubtful. I wouldn't use my Nikon gear in those kind of conditions either.

 

 

Ouch... that's an expensive bag that I hope he didn't check on the flight

 

When I travel now, I take two Nikon bodies (D70 and D200) -- I have never had one fail, but if it happened, I wouldn't be dead... I'd have the other one as a backup. I use the D70 when I can get away with it and the D200 when I can't or I have more room in my bag/backpack.

 

I would be taking the M8 to some very environmentally hostile places in terms of wet and dirt (and heat... not sure if that matters).

 

How do people here feel about the reliability of the M8 in these circumstances?

 

Only time will tell. If you are a Pro and are depending on the shots you take for money to live on then it would be foolish to go anywhere for a paid job with only one camera. No matter what make or model it is.

[pat308]

The M8 lives because of the Leica Myth and the unique place it holds as the only serious digital rangefinder. These are what draw the crowds and persuades normally sane people to plunk down distorted amounts of cash. The M8 is obscenely over priced and will not hold its value any better than the Nikon D2X or Canon 5D and will need to be updated completely in a couple of years as technology advances.

 

Relative build quality is mediocre. Design is just plain silly in some areas e.g. putting the SD card in spot where it cannot be changed quickly. Take a weekend and stuff a porsche 996 engine into a Ford Model T, and you have an idea of the effort and thinking that produced the Leica hybrid that is the M8.

 

The on-camera software is rudimentary at best and has numerous cosmetic and some not so cosmetic bugs.

 

The type of photography you can usefully and economically do with the M8 is limited; portraiture, street photography, family snaps. Gotta get the shot??? Then get a Canon or Nikon or xxxx SLR.

 

The images the M8 produces are stunning. Marry a decent lens with the M8 and it will render your scene with more life than you could imagine, and seemingly far more than any of the digital SLR's. It might choose to colour your blacks a nice shade of maroon, but in such a way that you'll forgive it.

 

The M8 can be carried all day. You will seldom notice you have it with you, but, if inclined, you will always have it with you.

 

The M8 is not a rational decision.

 

I use it exclusively as my P&S. All my family snaps are taken with it and I am happy for it work in that capacity. My creative work is done with a D2X.

[photophile]

I too am on the fence on the m8.. and have a long and pleasant relationship with my d200. however, I have also used my m4-2 and m6 for years. For what it is worth, my m6 has gone in the desert, in the glaciers, and is routinely used in for documenting house fires, motor vehicle accidents etc. in all kinds of adverse ( translate to wet and bumped, smokey, up and down ladders, etc ) conditions- and I have shot my kids pictures for the last 12 years. It has NEVER failed to give me solid useable and sometimes even great images. If you want to get a rf feel, consider buying a used m6 and play for a while.. you can always take it as a back-up. and if you do buy the m8.. let us know what you think.. I'm still pondering.. good luck.

[xrogers]

The M shines with medium to wide focal lengths. For kids and street shooting, get close, use a moderate wide angle and zone focus (at least in good light). The camera is amazingly quick in these situations, certainly quicker than my Canon 5D, and I'd expect quicker than the D200. Zone focus is not practical with modern DSLR lenses and their lame DOF scales.

 

If you want to isloate with depth of field, shoot in poor light, or use a telephoto, focus becomes more critical. You'll need to focus each shot, and the number of in-focus hits will go down (sometimes precipitously). I think a modern SLR will generally give more in focus shots in many of these situations (although Leica misses tend to be near misses, while SLR misses can be laughable). When the light gets really bad, or when the focus sensor covers items at the incorrect distance, the Leica quite easily pulls back into the lead.

 

I find that I sometimes miss Canon AF, but that at least when I blow the focus, it's all me. Few things frustrate me more than doing everything right with the Canon, and having it fail to focus properly.

 

On the frame rate---if you want to mash the button and pick the best, get something else. If you want shoot intentionally, it is more than fast enough.

 

Leica lenses are amazingly durable. The M8 is too new to have anything much beyond durability anecdotes. Most folks seem to have functioning cameras.

 

It takes time to get to know a rangefinder. A one week test isn't much of a test, in my opinion. If you can stand to do it, commitment will provide incentive to learn and grow. Buy the camera, a 28 and a 50, and shoot it for a year. It'll be different and fun!

 

Until later,

 

--clyde

[Guest Lotw]

If your first M is an M8, it will be difficult. First of all working with an RF takes time to practice. Moreover there is this problem with the frame liines in the M8, which is much more accurate with M7 - M3 and which is important in architecture. It is true however that an M is relatively appropriate for wide-angle photography and the M8 is as far is I know relatively unique in wide-angle digital photography at this moment.

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[Shootist]

If your first M is an M8, it will be difficult. First of all working with an RF takes time to practice. Moreover there is this problem with the frame liines in the M8, which is much more accurate with M7 - M3 and which is important in architecture. It is true however that an M is relatively appropriate for wide-angle photography and the M8 is as far is I know relatively unique in wide-angle digital photography at this moment.

 

Sorry I must disagree. The M8 is no more difficult to used then any other M camera. If you are use to a DSLR with AF and auto aperture and auto shutter speed and you use it like a glorified P&S then you will have a problem with any semi-manual camera.

If you THINK about how the focusing on the camera works and you have the correct glasses or diopter for your vision TO the M viewfinder all you have to do is line up the 2 images in the rangefinder patch so they become one clear image. This is true for the M2 all the way to the M8 and beyond. I find rangefinders easier to focus the SLR's with split images.

The frame line inaccuracy has nothing to do with focusing and errors on the side of getting more in the image then what you see inside the framing lines.You can always crop out the area that exceeds the frame lines if you like. You will still have plenty of resolution to work with.

As far as the frame lines being important in architectural photography, well with digital it is easily overcome by viewing the image you just took on the LCD screen. If you have what you need you're good. If you don't move in or back and reshoot the image.

 

I say BUY a M8 and enjoy it.