hhn360 Posted March 6, 2016 Share #1 Posted March 6, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hello, I shoot fashion in the studio and on location and am seriously contemplating upgrading to a medium format system. I currently shoot with Nikon D810 bodies for my fashion work and with a Leica SL and Sony A7RII for personal work. I would like to solicit this forum's opinions on whether I should go with a Leica S or the Phase One XF system with the IQ350 back? I shoot almost 100% of the time with strobes so will need leaf shutter lenses and fast sync speeds. The S has the advantage of being familiar (since I already use an SL). The Phase One will require a steeper learning curve (I use Lightroom and have no experience with Capture One) but seems like a more upgradable system over time and has 1/1600 sync speed. The Phase One dealer network seems stronger for professional photographers (I'm not a professional, just very serious amateur). Thanks, Hien Website: http://hienhnguyen-photographer.com Instagram: http://instagram.com/hien.h.nguyen Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 6, 2016 Posted March 6, 2016 Hi hhn360, Take a look here Leica S 007 or Phase One XF?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
John McMaster Posted March 6, 2016 Share #2 Posted March 6, 2016 So none of your current systems shoot at fast shutter speeds with strobe, but that is what you need? This is a Leica forum, compared to say getdpi.com, so what do you expect to hear ;-) john Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhn360 Posted March 6, 2016 Author Share #3 Posted March 6, 2016 I can use HSS with my Profoto B1/B2 strobes currently, but that's not quite the same thing. The Leica S CS lenses have 1/1000 sync speed I believe. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 6, 2016 Share #4 Posted March 6, 2016 (edited) Hello, I shoot fashion in the studio and on location and am seriously contemplating upgrading to a medium format system. I currently shoot with Nikon D810 bodies for my fashion work and with a Leica SL and Sony A7RII for personal work. I would like to solicit this forum's opinions on whether I should go with a Leica S or the Phase One XF system with the IQ350 back? I shoot almost 100% of the time with strobes so will need leaf shutter lenses and fast sync speeds. The S has the advantage of being familiar (since I already use an SL). The Phase One will require a steeper learning curve (I use Lightroom and have no experience with Capture One) but seems like a more upgradable system over time and has 1/1600 sync speed. The Phase One dealer network seems stronger for professional photographers (I'm not a professional, just very serious amateur). Thanks, Hien Website: http://hienhnguyen-photographer.com Instagram: http://instagram.com/hien.h.nguyen Hien, I assume that there might be a bit of confusion in your contemplation. IF you use strobes 100% of the time the IQ350 back is not the best choice ... why go for a high ISO small sensor when you control the light/universe? Phase One have great backs marginal bodies and a few lenses that are pretty good ... none that match the S series IMHO. The SL is a bit of an oddity ... not professional ... overly large and again a CMOS which is excelled by the Q. Leica S has moderate deficiencies ... AF lenses prone to fail at the most inconvenient times ... CS lenses that still use the FP shutter ... but the lenses overall are leagues above most any non Tech Camera lens. Truly ... demo both systems and then decide ... I cannot imagine that your end product will improve with more pixels ... Bob Edited March 6, 2016 by docmoore Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sortvitt Posted March 7, 2016 Share #5 Posted March 7, 2016 The XF system is huge. Massive. I handled it at a launch a few weeks back and the sheer size, weight, boxiness ruled it out for me. The S camera is excellent on location, and it has the widest range of lenses available through its adapters. Between the two I would suggest Leica S (barring the AF failure issue). The new Hasselblad could also be worthwhile waiting for. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhn360 Posted March 7, 2016 Author Share #6 Posted March 7, 2016 Hien, I assume that there might be a bit of confusion in your contemplation. IF you use strobes 100% of the time the IQ350 back is not the best choice ... why go for a high ISO small sensor when you control the light/universe? Phase One have great backs marginal bodies and a few lenses that are pretty good ... none that match the S series IMHO. The SL is a bit of an oddity ... not professional ... overly large and again a CMOS which is excelled by the Q. Leica S has moderate deficiencies ... AF lenses prone to fail at the most inconvenient times ... CS lenses that still use the FP shutter ... but the lenses overall are leagues above most any non Tech Camera lens. Truly ... demo both systems and then decide ... I cannot imagine that your end product will improve with more pixels ... Bob Thanks, Bob. Isn't the sensor of the IQ350 back approximately the same size as the S? Yes, I shoot with strobes almost 100% of the time. When I want to shoot wide open, I would benefit from having a high sync speed and also when I want to use faster shiutter speeds to freeze motion, etc. I know the sync speed on the Phase One is 1/1600, while I believe that on the Leica CS lenses is around 1/1000. I have the SL already and I do love using that camera for general purpose photography. For my more deliberate work I rely on the D810. I feel with the modular system of Phase One, it is possible to upgrade the system over time by trading back older backs for new ones with the dealer but with the S, I don't know what dealer support I would get. I have demoed the Phase One system but can never get my hands on a S 007. The Leica dealers never have them in stock, which is also a concern for me. It seems that the after-sales support of Phase One is more established for professional photographers. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhn360 Posted March 7, 2016 Author Share #7 Posted March 7, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) The XF system is huge. Massive. I handled it at a launch a few weeks back and the sheer size, weight, boxiness ruled it out for me. The S camera is excellent on location, and it has the widest range of lenses available through its adapters. Between the two I would suggest Leica S (barring the AF failure issue). The new Hasselblad could also be worthwhile waiting for. Thanks. How reliable is the autofocus system in your experience with the S? I'm fine with the ergonomics of the XF. I ruled out Hasselblad because of the lower max sync speed of 1/800. Phase One has a 1/1600 sync speed and while Leica, with CS lenses is only marginally better than Hasselblad at 1/1000, it handles more like a familiar large DSLR. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhn360 Posted March 7, 2016 Author Share #8 Posted March 7, 2016 So none of your current systems shoot at fast shutter speeds with strobe, but that is what you need? This is a Leica forum, compared to say getdpi.com, so what do you expect to hear ;-) john I can use HSS with my Profoto B1/B2 strobes but it's not really the same. I ask this on the S forum because from my experience in following this forum, S users are very forthright about their experiences with the S and not just cheerleaders for the product, unlike with some of the other Leica systems (especially M users, I feel). 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 7, 2016 Share #9 Posted March 7, 2016 (edited) Thanks, Bob. Isn't the sensor of the IQ350 back approximately the same size as the S? Yes, I shoot with strobes almost 100% of the time. When I want to shoot wide open, I would benefit from having a high sync speed and also when I want to use faster shiutter speeds to freeze motion, etc. I know the sync speed on the Phase One is 1/1600, while I believe that on the Leica CS lenses is around 1/1000. You may want to look at or demo a S006 CCD lower iso but gorgeous files and if you are supplying the light the higher ISO of the CMOS is not that crucial. CameraWest has a few S006 and SE in stock a very low prices. Phase charges for its warranty service ... it is an option with the S series and includes up to overnight delivery of loaner and expedited turnaround. Doubt that it is more than the Phase warranty, Definitely worth having a relationship with a dealer who stocks a good selection of equipment and who has a channel for response with Leica ... I assume any of the Leica Stores would be in this category. Bob Edited March 7, 2016 by docmoore Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted March 7, 2016 Share #10 Posted March 7, 2016 (edited) The crippling fator for me, remains the low resolution of the S, relative to Medium Format. If all you need is 37MP, then I would go for the S, anyday. Who knows if or when Leica will get with the program with higher resolution in their cameras though. That is not a 'lock in' I can live with for my work. I like the XF and am considering upgrading to it from my Hasselblad/P65+ combo. I would actually prefer the S, it's a better camera and lenses, IMO, but I need the function of pixels and maximum flexibility that medium format is suppose to give, over and above the camera form. For me it's been a juggling act between pixels and my preferred aesthetic of the M. Something the S may one day bridge. Edited March 7, 2016 by Paul J 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
albireo_double Posted March 7, 2016 Share #11 Posted March 7, 2016 How reliable is the autofocus system in your experience with the S? AF is very reliable (but not very fast) with the S bodies, one of the real strengths of the system. One exception is perhaps the combination of the S007 body and the 100 Summicron lens. In theory, this should be a combination made in heaven, but the AF there is hesitant for some reason and not entirely reliable. No such problem with any of the other lenses, though. If you shoot with strobes (outdoors) you will probably want to go with CS lenses, so the 100S "problem" won't affect you (as the 100S does not come in a CS version). 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chipcarterdc Posted March 7, 2016 Share #12 Posted March 7, 2016 My two cents on the 100mm: I've had no problems with it on the 007 at all. To the contrary, I find it to have the best AF of all my lenses (with the possible exception of the 70mm), even wide open at F2. The very few cases where I've missed focus with it were due to human error (me). 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted March 7, 2016 Share #13 Posted March 7, 2016 Hi, I don't quite follow some of what you have said here. You've mentioned that you are using studio flashes nearly all of the time. In that environment, the shutter speed is relevant only so far as the shutter is open for the duration of the flash pulse. Whether half of a second or 1/000 the light in the image is the same at the same aperture (assuming your shutter is open for all of the flash duration). That changes of course if you are using fill flash with ambient light. Freezing motion is a function of the flash duration, not the shutter speed in this environment. Typically the cheaper strobes have longer pulse durations. I don't know the numbers for the Profoto units personally. I think that the 810 vs SL is maybe a separate topic. The Phase One system does seem to offer some unique features. I guess you have to weigh the costs to see if those make sense for yourself? You can't replace the sensor in the S of course but it does mean that you will never encounter any alignment issues. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynp Posted March 7, 2016 Share #14 Posted March 7, 2016 I think that the OP was talking about the outdoors shooting with his strobes. Out of the studio, it's useful to be able to balance the flash with the ambient light. The most problematic is the situation when you need to overpower the sun with the relatively less powerful modern battery strobes. In the studio you just close the windows and switch off the overhead lights, and you can shoot at 1/100 sec. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynp Posted March 7, 2016 Share #15 Posted March 7, 2016 I can use HSS with my Profoto B1/B2 strobes currently, but that's not quite the same thing. The Leica S CS lenses have 1/1000 sync speed I believe.That's correct. 1/1000 for the Leica S CS. I have never used the new PhaseOne camera, but I think that the 50 megapixel Sony sensor is spectacular, used that sensor on a Hasselblad. Maybe it's a good idea to wait a little for the Photokina announcements. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Warwick Posted March 7, 2016 Share #16 Posted March 7, 2016 The crippling fator for me, remains the low resolution of the S, relative to Medium Format. If all you need is 37MP, then I would go for the S, anyday. Who knows if or when Leica will get with the program with higher resolution in their cameras though. That is not a 'lock in' I can live with for my work. I like the XF and am considering upgrading to it from my Hasselblad/P65+ combo. I would actually prefer the S, it's a better camera and lenses, IMO, but I need the function of pixels and maximum flexibility that medium format is suppose to give, over and above the camera form. For me it's been a juggling act between pixels and my preferred aesthetic of the M. Something the S may one day bridge. I fully hear what you're saying. I am looking to upgrade from an M240. I deeply value image quality, and to achieve that, I'd willingly sacrifice the M's wonderful and lightweight ease of use. I've explored the S in some depth - its image quality is certainly much better than the M240 (presumably from a mix of higher MP, and larger and better glass) and its extra acuity and 3D'ness make its gorgeous images look much more similar to LF film (5x4) IQ that i used to enjoy ..... but then i download very large MP files off the ALPA website and those Alpa / Phase One combos are in a another league of IQ. And much more importantly that sort of camera comes with the flexibility of a modular system (movements like rise / fall, in-camera stitching, different back that can be readily used including film) ..... Given 3 cameras in a row in the Leica S line are still at 38MP, and given its often seeming focus on fashion images that arguably doesn't always demand the highest MP count ...... and I personally wonder if there is any great desire to boost that MP count to avoid other probs like diffraction and handhold-ability that comes from overly stuffing MP into a fixed space?? There are VERY good reasons for keeping the S's MP count as it is, and not cramming more into it. In contrast, more modular platforms like Phase One (and/or tech cams like ALPA) have the flexibility to keep expanding their sensor size -- now to a size that is "full frame medium format" -- to incorporate more and more MPs ..... I also prefer the classic LF 4x5" (or MF 6x7cm) shaped sensors too, rather than the 2x3 format used in both the 35mm and the S. For all those reasons, mainly given the flexibility it allows, i wonder if a modular system might be a better long term bet for me compared to the S ...... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhn360 Posted March 8, 2016 Author Share #17 Posted March 8, 2016 I think that the OP was talking about the outdoors shooting with his strobes. Out of the studio, it's useful to be able to balance the flash with the ambient light. The most problematic is the situation when you need to overpower the sun with the relatively less powerful modern battery strobes. In the studio you just close the windows and switch off the overhead lights, and you can shoot at 1/100 sec. Thanks. That is correct. I construct my images using a combination of ambient and added light, depending on what the mood I want to create is. Sometimes depth of field is a consideration and I want to shoot in daylight wide open without having to resort to ND filters. Outdoors I shoot with Profoto B1 and B2 strobes. Even shooting in the studio I may want to shoot at faster than focal plane shutter sync speed of 1/250 (typically). Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhn360 Posted March 8, 2016 Author Share #18 Posted March 8, 2016 AF is very reliable (but not very fast) with the S bodies, one of the real strengths of the system. One exception is perhaps the combination of the S007 body and the 100 Summicron lens. In theory, this should be a combination made in heaven, but the AF there is hesitant for some reason and not entirely reliable. No such problem with any of the other lenses, though. If you shoot with strobes (outdoors) you will probably want to go with CS lenses, so the 100S "problem" won't affect you (as the 100S does not come in a CS version). Thanks. I would love to use the 100 but noticed a CS version isn't available. My go to lens for this system will likely be the 120 CS. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhn360 Posted March 8, 2016 Author Share #19 Posted March 8, 2016 The crippling fator for me, remains the low resolution of the S, relative to Medium Format. If all you need is 37MP, then I would go for the S, anyday. Who knows if or when Leica will get with the program with higher resolution in their cameras though. That is not a 'lock in' I can live with for my work. I like the XF and am considering upgrading to it from my Hasselblad/P65+ combo. I would actually prefer the S, it's a better camera and lenses, IMO, but I need the function of pixels and maximum flexibility that medium format is suppose to give, over and above the camera form. For me it's been a juggling act between pixels and my preferred aesthetic of the M. Something the S may one day bridge. Thanks. Those (pixels and flexibility) are two of my main concerns with the S as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McMaster Posted March 8, 2016 Share #20 Posted March 8, 2016 http://www.reddotforum.com/content/2014/11/why-leica-is-staying-at-37-5mp-for-the-s-typ-007/ john Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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