jaapv Posted March 8, 2016 Share #41 Posted March 8, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) Maybe not, but if your world is moving towards FF, it is wise to anticipate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 8, 2016 Posted March 8, 2016 Hi jaapv, Take a look here Picked up an SL but decided to leave it. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
G. van Asch Posted March 8, 2016 Share #42 Posted March 8, 2016 I love the SL and the 24-90 lens. First I had to get used to the size and weight off the lens but the pictures are beautiful and I am taking it out with me every day. I am now going to buy the Summilux TL 35/1.4mm for less weight only. About handling the SL without written down functions only on/off: I love it. If you are using your camera seriously and have to read every button there is something wrong. I have a M8 and M6 an I love both. Keep things simple about the SL and enjoy this new camera! Gerjan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manoleica Posted March 8, 2016 Share #43 Posted March 8, 2016 This is not intended to be a loaded question, even though it sounds like one: Is there any evidence that the world is moving to full-frame? Anecdotally, on my travels and at home, which is a popular destination for photo-clubs and photographers of all sorts, and in my work with art and photography students, I see far more people carrying/using small mirrorless cameras than DSLRs and the trend feels quite strong. I have no evidence to back this up though, and a quick Google for statistics proved fruitless. I think most "new to photography" people go with the best bang for their buck.. Only when you really get into photography does FF really come into it's own.. The Safari was the my first digital FF.. Leica's are probably least known outside the "Circle",, not forgetting the average Jane or Joe would never consider spending the bucks the Red Dot gets some of us to hand over!! L Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted March 8, 2016 Share #44 Posted March 8, 2016 Maybe not, but if your world is moving towards FF, it is wise to anticipate. Yes, indeed, but that's an individual decision rather than a global phenomenon. It may well be that the world is moving to FF. As I said, it wasn't a loaded question, but my highly unscientific observations seem to suggest that small mirrorless cameras are very popular, have revived interest in cameras amongst jaded ex Nikon and Canon users, and are winning quite a number of converts. Lots of photographers who are not wedded to a Leica-type philosophy are happy to accept a small degree of compromise in return for the pleasure a usable and affordable system can give them, and this feels like a very sensible and, frankly, mature way of looking at photography, certainly for non-professionals. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted March 8, 2016 Share #45 Posted March 8, 2016 ... As a side note, I would never buy an APS-C lens (regardless of the size) as the world is moving to full-frame. This is not intended to be a loaded question, even though it sounds like one: Is there any evidence that the world is moving to full-frame? ... Maybe not, but if your world is moving towards FF, it is wise to anticipate. Interesting little aside. I've never seen the point of doing something just because everyone else is doing it. I buy my equipment on the basis of what I want to do and what it does that supports those activities. I couldn't care less what everyone else is doing. My "other system" for years has been Olympus/Panasonic FourThirds/Micro-FourThirds. It's a lovely system that has many many high quality lens choices and an amazing range of features. I've not felt constrained by the FourThirds format. I didn't buy my Leica gear because it was "full frame" ... I bought my Leica gear because I wanted to use these lenses, and these lenses were designed for 24x36mm format. That's the format on which they image best and give the most versatile behavior. That's the reason to buy a system, not because "the world is moving to full-frame." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted March 8, 2016 Share #46 Posted March 8, 2016 Is there any evidence that the world is moving to full-frame? There is some evidence.The most popular cameras (after Apple phones) are Canons, and the trend is definitely full frame: https://www.flickr.com/cameras/canon/ Sony has fully embraced full frame. Pentax is going full frame. Sigma is getting out of APS-C with a new APS-H camera. [i am sure Fuji and others will join the full-frame party as soon as their sales of high-end cameras will drop]. Leica has released the SL which is a full-frame T, but they are keeping the SL system costs high because marketing folks want to segment the market and ask "pro" users ridiculously high prices. The new 35/1.4 APS-C, with such a big size, could easily have been a full frame lens, but that is meant for "poor" T users. They will certainly come up with a full-frame version to get the "pro" money. While Leica is promising and delaying, Sony is getting more and more of the mirrorless market. I am curious to see their new G lenses. If they are really as good as it seems, I expect SL system prices to drop. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steppenw0lf Posted March 8, 2016 Share #47 Posted March 8, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) I am curious to see their new G lenses. If they are really as good as it seems, I expect SL system prices to drop. Hi CheshireCat, what did you take, before you started dreaming ? Have you ever seen Leica prices drop ? Just imagine what a disaster this would cause with collectors. There is a natural law that forbids it - it's as if there is suddenly a decrease in entropy. Impossible in our universe. Stephan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpclee Posted March 8, 2016 Share #48 Posted March 8, 2016 You are not accounting for the extra length and weight that goes into the 24-90/2.8-4 because the SL doesn't have a mirror box section. That extra portion is about the size and weight of the R->SL adapter and roughly 200g and 25mm. If you don't account for that, the only apples to apples comparison in your list is the 24-70/2.8 for the Sony A7 mirrorless system: Sony 24-70/2.8: 88x136mm 886g About the same size as the Leica, no? Weight wise I'm sure the Sony uses a lot of plastics / polycarbonate to reduce weight. A little biased comparison only agains the Nikon biggest lens. What about these: Leica 24-90/2.8-4: 88x138mm 1140g Canon 24-70/2.8: 88x113mm 805g Sony 24-70/2.8: 88x136mm 886g Sony 24-70/4: 73x94mm 430g Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpclee Posted March 8, 2016 Share #49 Posted March 8, 2016 Again that's not even an apples to apples comparison. A retrofocus design produces bad / smeary corners on full frame sensors and requires a combination of offset micro lenses and digital correction to fix. There are a bunch of reports on how poorly the M wides perform on the Sony A7 bodies so that small size comes with a penalty. If you are willing to take that kind of penalty you can design smaller. But there is no free lunch. This is false. It depends on FL and lens design (e.g. retrofocus for wides). As an example, my M is a mirrorless camera and my Summilux-M 35 is quite smaller than the new T lens. As a side note, I would never buy an APS-C lens (regardless of the size) as the world is moving to full-frame. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted March 8, 2016 Share #50 Posted March 8, 2016 There is some evidence. The most popular cameras (after Apple phones) are Canons, and the trend is definitely full frame: https://www.flickr.com/cameras/canon/ Sony has fully embraced full frame. Pentax is going full frame. Sigma is getting out of APS-C with a new APS-H camera. [i am sure Fuji and others will join the full-frame party as soon as their sales of high-end cameras will drop]. Leica has released the SL which is a full-frame T, but they are keeping the SL system costs high because marketing folks want to segment the market and ask "pro" users ridiculously high prices. The new 35/1.4 APS-C, with such a big size, could easily have been a full frame lens, but that is meant for "poor" T users. They will certainly come up with a full-frame version to get the "pro" money. While Leica is promising and delaying, Sony is getting more and more of the mirrorless market. I am curious to see their new G lenses. If they are really as good as it seems, I expect SL system prices to drop. I am sure this is because this is the only bit of the market left where they can make money ........ the 'serious' amateur that aspires to vaguely 'pro grade' equipment on the assumption they can then take better photos than everyone else with a mobile phone or tablet. I can see the vast swathe of intermediate cameras with modest (ie. excellent by previous standards) performance facing extinction The proliferation of higher quality optics rather than quantum leaps in camera performance is testament to this. It's a good time if you want high performance gear ..... you are getting spoilt for choice .... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted March 9, 2016 Share #51 Posted March 9, 2016 Again that's not even an apples to apples comparison. A retrofocus design produces bad / smeary corners on full frame sensors and requires a combination of offset micro lenses and digital correction to fix. There are a bunch of reports on how poorly the M wides perform on the Sony A7 bodies so that small size comes with a penalty. If you are willing to take that kind of penalty you can design smaller. But there is no free lunch. I think you meant "a non-retrofocus design" ... Symmetrical and near-symmetrical short focal length M lenses have the most difficulty on digital sensors in general, and FF sensors exacerbate the problems. This is because these lenses were designed for film cameras prove to have a ray trace to the imaging plane that is inclined well off orthogonal. Retrofocus (aka inverted telephoto) short focal length designs are generally more successful on digital sensors, since this lens type was designed to enable more distance from the imaging plane to allow clearance for a swinging mirror. Which, in turn, straightens out the ray trace by some degree. The M typ 240/246 sensor did away with offset microlenses and uses instead microlenses with an aspheric shape to enable the sensor to work with a more inclined ray trace. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted March 9, 2016 Share #52 Posted March 9, 2016 Hi CheshireCat, what did you take, before you started dreaming ? Have you ever seen Leica prices drop ? Just imagine what a disaster this would cause with collectors. There is a natural law that forbids it - it's as if there is suddenly a decrease in entropy. Impossible in our universe. Hahah, hi Stephan. Yes, I am a dreamer I have seen Leica prices drop, especially in the used market. Or the "one month" 12% discount in the US since May 2015. Let's see what happens. As a user and not a collector, I am the opposite of worried Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted March 9, 2016 Share #53 Posted March 9, 2016 A retrofocus design produces bad / smeary corners on full frame sensors and requires a combination of offset micro lenses and digital correction to fix. It is actually the other way around: a retrofocus design is an "inverted tele", therefore "more telecentric" (less steep ray angles). Newest sensors (like Sony's BSI) do not require offset microlenses nor digital correction; their only problem is filter stack thickness with steep ray angles. I am confident the future will bring new sensors that don't need thick sensor filter stacks, therefore I'll stick to compact and awesome M lenses, buying bigger lenses if and only if they are state-of-the-art or very interesting/funny. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott kirkpatrick Posted March 9, 2016 Share #54 Posted March 9, 2016 I watch EBay activity from time to time. Leica lens sales (remember "never sell a Leica lens"?) are pretty slow, with most appearing to be sold by quasi-dealers with a large number of previous transactions logged as "Buy it now" and relisted regularly. An APO-Summicron 50 from a private owner was offered at auction recently and sold for $4600 (these are ~$8K+ new). The Fuji X-Pro2, which offers a really interesting alternative to the M's user interface, sells lightly used for about the same amount as B&H charges for a new body, both a slight discount from the official list price. Seems like a buyers' market at the moment, not a good story for collectors. scott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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