Flash performance very disappointing on the SL

[LocalHero1953]

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This gives the very clear impression of firmware engineers who were way behind the timetable for delivery of a working system for November, so just delivered a system that wouldn't cause the SL to melt down in use. I just wonder how far behind they were and whether they are anywhere near finishing it.

[cpclee]

I did some more testing using the SF20 and can confirm this: When the flash is set to A mode and the SL is set to either M or A, the flash compensation controls on the flash works.  I was able to do -3EV and saw the flash output reduced in the pictures. This is true whether the native 24-90 zoom or an M lens is mounted.  Also, in A mode the SF20 doesn't automatically set its ISO to the ISO on the SL.  However, I did notice something strange.  There were a couple of instances when suddenly I couldn't change the ISO on the camera, and the problem went away as soon as the flash was turned off and back on. 

Edited February 25, 2016 by cpclee

[cpclee]

One way or another Leica really needs to get the flash system on the SL fixed immediately.

[cpclee]

As a temporary fix, I think something like the Seagull JSC2 hot shoe adapter can fix the problems when using a flash in A mode on the SL.  Basically it has only the central, standard flash contact and not the three peripheral contacts used by modern Leicas to transmit camera data to the flash.  With this thing sitting between the flash and the SL, the A mode on the flash will function like when the flash is attached to a very primitive camera (eg. M6 classic).  Which is to say the flash will fire but its controls cannot be overridden by whatever firmware bugs the SL might have.  Therefore, the A mode will function properly by the flash self-regulating its output based on what the on-flash sensor measures and the ISO, aperture and flash compensation values that you manually dial into the flash.

Edited February 25, 2016 by cpclee

[steppenw0lf]

OK, I know now that it is royally screwed, but otherwise i'm lost.

So FlashGordon, could you make a summary and an "advisory" for SL users with M and R working with A mode ? (Or do you think M mode is better)

 

1: If I have nothing, which flash should I buy (comparable to SF40) ?   (Or is this too small, or already too big)

 

2: Which setting of the flash should I use ? ("cooperation between flash and camera" or "flash only")

(in the following circumstances   A: for additional flash at daylight,    B: for flash at night)

 

3: Any hints and tricks from your long years of experience ? 

 

Or any other structure you think is appropriate.

 

Maybe that is asked too much, but give it a try if possible, thanks in advance.

Make it for dummies (I don't mind) .          Don't make it for a pro - they don't need it. 

 

Thanks.       Stephan

[wlaidlaw]

Stephan, 

 

I think you should buy a Leica compatible flash, the SF40 or pre-order the larger, more powerful and double head, with auto-zoom on the main head SF64. Leica WILL get this sorted or there will be trouble! I am a bit surprised we have not had a firmware update already on this, as Leica have known about the problem for close to three months now or more, if they actually knew about the problem before but were keeping quiet at the meeting I had with Leica on December 9 on this.

 

If you are prepared to live with ISO 50, you can use A mode but put the camera into Auto ISO, which confusingly fixes the ISO at 50 when a flash is active. You will then get limited slow synch capability. I find the best work around is M mode with the shutter speed at 1/160" and the Flash set to TTL. At nearer distances you may find the flashes underexposing somewhat and you need to alter the EV in the flash settings (Menu/Camera/Page 2). If you are using flash as fill in, it is a bit trial and error at the moment to get the right settings, as the natural way to do this would be Aperture Priority mode, Fixed ISO, flash at TTL or HSS-TTL and synch speed set to 1/1 x focal length or 1/2 x focal length. This is NOT working at all at the moment. 

 

Wilson

Edited February 26, 2016 by wlaidlaw

[cpclee]

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Like I said above, A mode should work perfectly if you put in a standard hot shoe adapter or tape up the peripheral contacts on the SL's hot shoe. The A mode is always designed so that the flash will work perfectly with a camera with a standard hot shoe (eg. central contact only). There would be no electronic data communications in this case and the flash cannot act up.

 

Stephan, 

 

I think you should buy a Leica compatible flash, the SF40 or pre-order the larger, more powerful and double head, with auto-zoom on the main head SF64. Leica WILL get this sorted or there will be trouble! I am a bit surprised we have not had a firmware update already on this, as Leica have known about the problem for close to three months now or more, if they actually knew about the problem before but were keeping quiet at the meeting I had with Leica on December 9 on this.

 

If you are prepared to live with ISO 50, you can use A mode but put the camera into Auto ISO, which confusingly fixes the ISO at 50 when a flash is active. You will then get limited slow synch capability. I find the best work around is M mode with the shutter speed at 1/160" and the Flash set to TTL. At nearer distances you may find the flashes underexposing somewhat and you need to alter the EV in the flash settings (Menu/Camera/Page 2). If you are using flash as fill in, it is a bit trial and error at the moment to get the right settings, as the natural way to do this would be Aperture Priority mode, Fixed ISO, flash at TTL or HSS-TTL and synch speed set to 1/1 x focal length or 1/2 x focal length. This is NOT working at all at the moment. 

 

Wilson

Edited February 26, 2016 by cpclee

[FlashGordonPhotography]

OK, I know now that it is royally screwed, but otherwise i'm lost.

So FlashGordon, could you make a summary and an "advisory" for SL users with M and R working with A mode ? (Or do you think M mode is better)

 

1: If I have nothing, which flash should I buy (comparable to SF40) ?   (Or is this too small, or already too big)

 

2: Which setting of the flash should I use ? ("cooperation between flash and camera" or "flash only")

(in the following circumstances   A: for additional flash at daylight,    B: for flash at night)

 

3: Any hints and tricks from your long years of experience ? 

 

Or any other structure you think is appropriate.

 

Maybe that is asked too much, but give it a try if possible, thanks in advance.

Make it for dummies (I don't mind) .          Don't make it for a pro - they don't need it. 

 

Thanks.       Stephan

 

 

 

Hi Stephan,

 

In one sentence, use M mode on the camera, for now, if you are wanting to use TTL flash on the SL.

 

If you are using M and R lenses on the SL and you want TTL flash then the SF40 will work in M mode (on the camera) and give you TTL. A mode on the camera currently does not work with a TTL flash unless you set auto ISO.

 

The SF40 is a great little flash. Use it in M mode and when Leica fix the rest then A mode and exposure preview will start to work with the TTL flash. No idea how long this might take. I too am waiting impatiently.

 

Wilson gave a great explanation above.

 

 

 

Gordon

[ramarren]

... In one sentence, use M mode on the camera, for now, if you are wanting to use TTL flash on the SL. ... 

 

 

Yes.

 

Actually, despite having dedicated flash units for Olympus and Nikon (and bodies to match), I use all TTL flash units on M mode when I want TTL metering.

 

I figure I want the flash to adjust exposure through power output adjustment, and I'll set ISO, aperture, and shutter speed to handle the scene as I want them. This has worked well for me since I first bought a dedicated TTL flash unit for my Nikon FE-2 so many years ago (1982 IIRC).

 

Not to knock other folks' preferences, but this does work very nicely. 

[Paul925]

It appears that something is being worked on.  I heard earlier today that the SF-64 is already going to get a firmware update before its upcoming release.  

 

I wonder if that means that the SF-26 and SF-40 will be needing an update too.  If so, I hope we don't see another situation like the SF-26 where you have to send the flash itself in to Leica to get the firmware updated...and that any update doesn't ruin the existing functionality with the M....

[FlashGordonPhotography]

It appears that something is being worked on.  I heard earlier today that the SF-64 is already going to get a firmware update before its upcoming release.  

 

I wonder if that means that the SF-26 and SF-40 will be needing an update too.  If so, I hope we don't see another situation like the SF-26 where you have to send the flash itself in to Leica to get the firmware updated...and that any update doesn't ruin the existing functionality with the M....

 

 

Well the SF40 works just fine on the M system. So I tend to think the flash is fine and it's the SL that's buggered.

 

Gordon

[Paul925]

I agree.  Last time out with both bodies I put the SF40 on the M for when I needed flash and shot the SL available light only.  I couldn't afford to have to wonder what the SL might do.

[adamdewilde]

I don't understand this:   "I use all TTL flash units on M mode when I want TTL metering"  could you elaborate please?

 

 

I think what he means is. He switches his camera to M mode. Then puts his flash in TTL mode. So it brightens the subject or scene as needed. This is how most people use flash. Leica's flash system is terrible. I too am disappointed as it was one of the main reasons I wanted the SL. Hopefully they fix this soon.

 

Leica has been a big disappointment for a while now. Sad, but true.

(And yes I own an SL+Zoom+flashes plus S-system plus M-system.)

[ramarren]

I don't understand this:   "I use all TTL flash units on M mode when I want TTL metering"  could you elaborate please?

 

 

You're basically forcing the flash to do the exposure adjustment, having set the ambient exposure manually. 

 

Set camera to Manual exposure mode. Set your desired lens opening. Set the exposure time for how much ambient exposure you want in the image balanced against the flash unit's output, which you adjust with flash exposure compensation. At exposure time, the flash reads the exposure through the lens and adjusts its output to match exposure to its standards, based on the FEC you've set, the amount of power it has at its disposal, etc. 

 

This is how I've worked with TTL flash since acquiring my first TTL flash unit in 1982 (Nikon FE2 and Speedlight SB-15 TTL. It has always worked beautifully. It's how I use the Olympus FL-36 with E-1 and E-M1 today. 

 

I've not obtained good results using Aperture priority automation and TTL flash on any camera, really. In some cases, I've gotten decent results using Program mode and Shutter priority mode, but Manual mode and TTL flash has always worked very well. I haven't owned a Leica TTL flash since I had the M6TTL and SF20, more than a decade ago, so I'm not sure what new capability the SF 58, SF 24, etc, are supposed to have with Aperture priority.

 

Obviously, from all the chatter about it, it's not quite ready for prime time at this point. 

[tobey bilek]

Sorry to put you into a froth. Of course Leica should make the system work the way the specifications and instructions imply.

 

On the other hand, I'm a practical sort with this stuff ... If I had such needs for flash system integration/automation, I'd just stick with my Nikons where the flash system is outstanding. To me it's all a matter of priorities. I only rarely use flash, and usually in very controlled circumstances; even when I was doing events and such, I used flash only rarely, and very simply, because I don't like the look of it. 

 

But these are my predilections. I understand you feel otherwise. 

 

For sure Speedlights.   When I got the first pair,  I tried everything I could do to trick them, failed.

[Nikus]

 Has anybody with an SL and TTL flash got the camera to fire at all shutter speeds in AV mode?

 

Yes, me. Flash is SF 64. It's working fine in TTL mode and M HSS, but still lousy in TTL HSS mode outside. The performance is a guidenumber of 24 (metering system, 100 ASA, 35mm) only, so dont't expect too much on it.

[Jared]

Like I said above, A mode should work perfectly if you put in a standard hot shoe adapter or tape up the peripheral contacts on the SL's hot shoe. The A mode is always designed so that the flash will work perfectly with a camera with a standard hot shoe (eg. central contact only). There would be no electronic data communications in this case and the flash cannot act up.

"A" mode on the SF-40 is not auto-thyristor mode as it is on most flashes. Instead, it stands for "auto-TTL" where no overrides are allowed. It's a TTL mode not an automatic mode, so this likely would not work with the SF-40.

 

Best advice at present for the SL, as mentioned, is to either use aperture priority mode with auto ISO turned on (in which case ISO 50 will be selected and the shutter speed won't drop too low before the camera assumes the flash is going to make up for lack of ambient light) or, better still, use manual exposure mode on the camera, choose your ISO, aperture, and shutter speed for the ambient exposure and just let the TTL flash do its thing.

 

- Jared

Edited March 12, 2016 by Jared

[rick_dykstra]

Thanks for this thread everyone. What a big disappointment. I've used flash a lot with my Leicas and would again with an SL. So there's now two reasons I won't buy one; this, and questions about the R adapter. Well, three if I include dynamic range with video. Will be watching for developments.

[IkarusJohn]

If I can use the camera in M mode, expose for ambient light, and the flash will then illuminate the subject TTL, then I am happy.

 

I hope I explained that right.

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Hallo,

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[wlaidlaw]

If I can use the camera in M mode, expose for ambient light, and the flash will then illuminate the subject TTL, then I am happy.

 

I hope I explained that right.

 

Sadly, this is not working very well at the moment. This is what I have been using with both the SF24 and 58 flashes. The exposure is very hit and miss. If you set manually, correctly for the ambient light using the internal TTL metering system, with the displayed EVF bar display, then depending how near your subjects are, you tend to get the foreground over-exposed, when flash is added. It works just about OK for near distances in total darkness with the 24 and mid distances with the 58 but trying to do slow sync, needs about 4 shots before you get the exposure correct. I was trying to take some photos last week on an island in the middle of the Irrawaddy river with the SL and SF24, where we were having a farewell party after our cruise from Yangon to Mandalay. I gave up with the flash and went back to the boat for my 0.95 Noctilux. Given that the SF64 and 40 flashes are now available, I feel Leica have been very dilatory in not getting the FW sorted for this. Selling the flashes before the camera can use them properly, is putting the cart before the horse. Leica have now known about the problem for 4 months and still no solution - not too impressive. 

 

Wilson