Reflections due to clear filter on lens

[lucerne]

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I added a freshly purchased B&W 49m 007 Clear MRC Nano filter to my Q for my recent trip and used it constantly in the sometimes dirty environment.  Now I'm seeing unwanted reflections of objects in images taken at night in artificial light.  I wouldn't have believed this was going to happen. My apologies to another forum member who had previously suggested that such a filter was the cause.  Seems he was right, but why hasn't this happened to me previously with my Leica M9 on both Lux and Chron lenses.

 

look at the area beneath the piano.  The pictures being reflected are from a completely different zone in the scene and cannot feasibly be natural reflections on the shiny floor.  Other lines on the floor are also suspect so it seems to be an optical anomaly caused by my lens and filter combination.

 

Ideas?

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[Mr.Q]

To me it looks like reflections on the shiny floor. Do you have a better example?

[pop]

Indeed, the part under the piano is the wall of the gallery with the four pictures, also the ceiling of the gallery with the little spot lights.

[lucerne]

Thanks. I've got many more images to work on, so I may find additional suspects.  The hotel lobby was very large and the wall with the pictures on the first floor was set back substantially so those pictures could not appear as reflections 6 metres away on the centre of the ground floor under the piano!  They weren't specifically  illuminated.  In fact, the whole area had very subdued lighting. 

 

No reflection problem visible on this shot from a different angle.  Note: the ceiling in this building was 12 floors above this central area so no reflections from the ceiling to the floor. This convinces me that the problem is generated by my optics when light reflects off the filter at a certain angle and intensity.

 

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Floors above Atrium. (You can see that the four pictures on the wall are nowhere near the ground floor).

[goatsby]

Was there track or recessed lighting on the ceilings? Were there glass panels beneath the railings? I'm not discounting the possibility of the filter, but this polished environment seems like a magnet for random reflections.  

[Mr.Q]

I agree, there are too many lights and relective surfaces (floor, windows) for this type of testing.

[hoppyman]

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While I understand that any extra glass surfaces/coatings in your lens may potentially contribute some flare or shapes, in my view what you have here are real world reflections from glossy surfaces in an environment full of point light sources and shiny surfaces. Did you notice that the shapes of the framed picture reflections are distorted not straight mirror images too? I'm not aware at least that any plane surface could produce the reflections that are in your images. Looking at you first image, you can see around the piano for example multiple shadows and a pretty complex environment with all of the different surfaces. You might even get reflections of reflections? I know very little about pianos, is it possible that the under surface of the piano itself is contributing a reflection?

 

I don't know what your exposure settings were but perhaps these reflections were not obvious to the eye at all, but made more prominent by the camera providing good exposures in what you said was very subdued lighting.

What would be really cool  and definitive would be if you could revisit and repeat your shots without the filter. Always something new for all of us to learn.

[pop]

Please consider: in the first picture you see that the floor you are standing on is very shiny. It reflects the potted palm trees on the right hand side and the desk with the receptionists near the middle. You can see clearly a reflection of the railing of the first floor. Of the four pictures, two are partly hidden from view because the perspective is different in the reflection off the floor. That is an effect you can not create within or just in front of your lens.

 

The gallery is bright enough to show clearly on the photograph; hence, its mirror image is perfectly visible as well.

 

In the second set you can clearly see that each and every lamp is reflected in the floor.

 

In the picture below I have marked the line roughly where the floor meets the rear wall. I have connected three objects (Man near to desk, lamp, picture on gallery) with their reflections in the floor and you can see that the distance between the object and the floor is about the same as the apparent distance between the reflection and the floor. They are, indeed, reflections in the scene and you can indeed glimpse the reflections of the pictures underneath the piano.

 

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[lucerne]

I'll go with the consensus opinion that these are true reflections within a highly reflective environment.  Thanks everyone, for your input.  If I encounter a similar scenario I'll be more experimental and cautious.   Unfortunately I don't think I'll be returning to this hotel in Mumbai.  Not because it was bad, but it was top class and they spoiled me rotten.  My feet are firmly back on the ground in Torquay now, and I'm back to the routine of having to do everything for myself.  

 

For or the record, and to boast, it's the Oberoi Mumbai.

[beez]

Last night, I was using my Q (along with my Nikons) shooting an assignment for my agency at a Bernie Sanders campaign event. I also have a B+W 007 clear MRC nano xs Pro Digital filter on my Q, and this kind of turned into an inadvertent test. These are consecutive frames, both shot at 320/sec @ f2 at ISO 800. Both basically the same angle, the only difference is in the second picture, one of the big spotlights in the back for the room is pointing straight into the lens. In the other, a person's arm is in the way. In the second picture, I see no extraneous reflections caused by the filter. In fact, I’m amazed at the clarity of the Summilux with a 5k watt spot pointing right down the barrel of the lens - no element flare, internal lens reflections, or other artifacts that I can see. Just a slight loss of contrast in that area of the frame.

I'm also impressed with how smart the meter is - I was using AF and aperture priority matrix metering (w/-.3 stop EC), so basically letting the camera’s meter figure out a pretty complex lighting situation. These are DNGs, pretty close to straight out of the camera. I'm also impressed with the AF. With AF points that go edge-to-edge, top-to-bottom over the entire frame - 169 different positions. In both of these, I had a focus spot right on Bernie’s face, and it’s easy to see the plane of focus at f2.

 

 

[nryn]

Those are point light source reflections on the floor but for what it is worth, I stopped using anything except ND or polarizing filters as needed on my lenses about 15 years ago because of internal reflections. I had a brief period with my M8 where I had to use an IR cut filter due to color shifts with that sensor.

 

My response to people who say they want to protect the front of their lenses when they are dropped is to not drop your lens. And my response to people who say they want to keep the dirt off the front of their lens is that it just moves the dirt to the filter (and to clean their lens when it is dirty). 

[beez]

Those are point light source reflections on the floor but for what it is worth, I stopped using anything except ND or polarizing filters as needed on my lenses about 15 years ago because of internal reflections. I had a brief period with my M8 where I had to use an IR cut filter due to color shifts with that sensor.

 

My response to people who say they want to protect the front of their lenses when they are dropped is to not drop your lens. And my response to people who say they want to keep the dirt off the front of their lens is that it just moves the dirt to the filter (and to clean their lens when it is dirty). 

 

I think it really depends on what sort of situations you find yourself in when you're shooting. As a pro photojournalist, I find myself in some very tight quarters and even scrums, with other members of the media, who also have multiple cameras around their necks and shoulders, like I do. And sometimes members of the public. For me, protective filters are needed. I also had the IR/cut filters on my lenses I used on my M8, and have used protective filters on my Nikon gear and Leica gear for years, and I've never had a problem with reflections caused by these filters, if they're good quality.

[ejn09]

I've found Hoya HD3 filters produce the least artifacts but still create some under the right lighting conditions. 

 

Finally gave up on protective filters and have gone commando for about 5 years.