Rick Posted December 24, 2015 Share #141 Posted December 24, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Evolve? I'm dog! We are already more evolved than humans. Now if you 'people' would let us vote... Down boy - don't make me lock you in the bathroom again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 24, 2015 Posted December 24, 2015 Hi Rick, Take a look here What's Special About An M?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Rick Posted December 24, 2015 Share #142 Posted December 24, 2015 Started looking through the wiki, but at the risk of seeming, err... revealing I'm an idiot, is that what you meant by FAQ or was there a more 240 specific url you had in mind? TW - I'm sure you are an old hand at photography. Nothing implied here. The FAQ I was talking about is here: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/216580-leica-m8-m82-m9-m9p-mm-mtyp240-faqs-questions-with-answers/ It is long and I meant that you might want to go out and shoot rather than sit in front of the computer reading it for the next 2 days. Nice shots... cat picture, on your second photo post...how unique. Have to introduce you to Jono. He fancies cats, dogs and chickens. Rick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted December 24, 2015 Share #143 Posted December 24, 2015 I have yet to see anything that is of much other than marginally passing interest from smartphones (and yes I do have two as it happens). As for your encouraging one to think comment, well they do but for the most part not very deeply in my opinion. Perhaps you see other images as irrelevant (I took a photo of a new species to the UK this year plus behavioural shots which had not been seen before - ego driven or curiosity driven? - and of more than passing interest but NOT unfortunately on a smart phone)? Smartphones can be used as creatively as any other camera. Viveca Koh uses smartphones with in-phone app processing for a lot of her work. http://vivecakohphotography.photoshelter.com/ http://www.vivecakohphotography.co.uk/ You may not like her stuff. But it's difficult to claim there is no creativity there. (I've heard her talk about her work - there is also thought behind it - it's not, necessarily, ephemeral). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted December 24, 2015 Share #144 Posted December 24, 2015 You may not like her stuff. But it's difficult to claim there is no creativity there. (I've heard her talk about her work - there is also thought behind it - it's not, necessarily, ephemeral). I didn't discount the fact that there is creative use of smart phones (I know someone who has written a book on iPhone landscapes) but these users are marginal and my friend certainly understands imagery (he should he's a well known advertising photographer). But the VAST majority of smartphone images are merely of marginal and passing interest - within the context of answering imants mumblings I feel my post to be correct. But whether such considered work is much more than ephemeral only time will tell. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tailwagger Posted December 24, 2015 Share #145 Posted December 24, 2015 TW - I'm sure you are an old hand at photography. Nothing implied here. The FAQ I was talking about is here: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/216580-leica-m8-m82-m9-m9p-mm-mtyp240-faqs-questions-with-answers/ Didnt take your remarks negatively in the slightest, rather as sage advice for approaching this camera successfully. Just thought I'd backfill a bit on how I came to finally give Leica a whirl. Old yes, hand... well. Its true I trace my origins back to wielding a Zeiss Ikon Contaflex, but in those days I'll admit I spent more time asleep than awake in the darkroom. Really returned to photography in a serious way after the dawn of the digital. I was sold once I realized that I could still occasionally nod off while processing or printing and unlike film nothing got permanently ruined. Seemed like a tradeoff I could finally manage. Thanks for the link and the kind words! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
asiafish Posted December 24, 2015 Share #146 Posted December 24, 2015 Thanks for the welcome everyone! Within the first few minutes of ownership I feel I've already glimpsed why the M stirs a certain level of contraversy. Sadly, its been rather dreary here, so I haven't got much real use yet, just practicing focusing technique mostly, but its already evident that even the throwaway images have a certain art about them. Less clinical, more photographic than any of the other cameras I own. First digital photographs I've taken where my initial inclination is to diminish clarity rather than crisp things up. Lovely. OTOH, the body is a somewhat portly in my smallish hands and some elements such as pulling the base plate to get to the memory card strikes me as overly nostalgic. I'm sure its comforting for those who've spent half a lifetime loading and unloading cans, but personally I find trap doors more convenient. While I might not yet have accepted or grasped the M specialness, the glass is another story. For educational reasons I've limited myself for the next few months to a single lens, the 50mm Summicron. After apprenticing with that we'll see where we wind up. But after only a couple of hours and a few dozen snaps, it is very easy to understand how some folks can become completely obsessed over collecting these little glass jewels. One, at least in my tax bracket with a son entering college next year, doesn't enter into this world lightly. I believe that the more worthwhile the thing, the greater the level of patience and commitment required. There's a learning curve to be sure, but I've already found it, at least initially, to be a gentler slope that I might have anticipated. OTOH, one can easily sit down in front of a Bosendorfer, press a key or two and admire its tone. Mastering its nuances is another matter. So yes, for better of worse, I will indeed be staying for a while. It's already clear that the M system offers something that is worthwhile spending the time and energy to learn more about. Perhaps that is one of the qualities that makes it special. I'm off to check out the FAQ, (thanks for the tip!) but before I go, again thank you all for the welcome. I truly look forward to becoming a positive addition to the community. Not sure which digital M you have, and it really doesn't matter much as all are exceptional. As for lenses, the 50mm f/2 Summicron is so good that while you may wish something different, faster, smaller, or something-else-er, you will never outgrow it or need anything better. The current version was introduced way back in 1996, and the optics are identical to the version introduced in 1979. It is the oldest lens in Leica's catalog, and until the APO version was released in 2012 it was considered one of the very best 50mm lenses ever, and still is. I bought my 50 Cron with my M Monochrom 3-years-ago and am now considering the addition of a 50mm f/1.4 Summilux ASPH, not because it is better, but because it is different and of course faster. I will not sell the Summicron when I buy the Summilux, and it will remain my favorite lens on the M Monochrom and for film, while the Lux will likely live on my M-E, which really needs that extra stop indoors or in low light. If I owned an M240 instead of the M-E (I prefer the CCD look) I would not bother with the faster lens at all. 50mm is also an excellent place to start with the M. The frame line is large enough for easy composition, and small enough that you can really see what is going on just outside. A 35mm lens is also an excellent choice, though if you are new to rangefinder photography the 50mm gives more of that special experience. I'd recommend a 35mm next, and if you want to stay budget friendly, the 35mm f/2.5 (the older version) Summarit is exceptional lens that has a very complimentary look to the 50mm Summicron. Welcome to Leica, I think you will love it here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
asiafish Posted December 24, 2015 Share #147 Posted December 24, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Started looking through the wiki, but at the risk of seeming, err... revealing I'm an idiot, is that what you meant by FAQ or was there a more 240 specific url you had in mind? From a fundamentals POV, outside of the rangefinder aspect, I don't find the M either upsets or dumbs down my mental model of what a camera is supposed to be. It represents something of a mid-point between the two systems I've been shooting with over the past few years, Fuji X and Pentax D/Z. While I find MF with Fuji lenses untenable, the Pentax, given it's always on legs and being severely limited with respect to AF points, had already forced a return to relying heavily on MF. In this respect the M, having a split finder, has made accurate MF a bit easier. As to photographic output, its a bit premature to post more generally. The weather has a been quite uncooperative of late and at approximately the same time the camera arrived so did a stomach virus. But sure, excuses are many and I sense that when it comes to Leica one is presumed guilty of membership in group two until proven innocent. I'm afraid my evidence to the contrary so far is weak, but as proof that my M isn't just sitting on the shelf being admired, here's one taken in the rain from pre-dawn this morning along with the obligatory first snap devoted to the family pet from the first evening of ownership. Apologies if this is OT. Rainy weather, night and a Leica lens make a wonderful combination. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulus Posted December 24, 2015 Share #148 Posted December 24, 2015 Living in Basel and having attended several concerts by both professors and students of the Schola Cantorum Basiliensis I heartily agree. We in the Netherlands do it like this: http://allofbach.com/nl/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tailwagger Posted December 24, 2015 Share #149 Posted December 24, 2015 Rainy weather, night and a Leica lens make a wonderful combination. Have to agree! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tailwagger Posted December 24, 2015 Share #150 Posted December 24, 2015 Not sure which digital M you have, and it really doesn't matter much as all are exceptional. As for lenses, the 50mm f/2 Summicron is so good that while you may wish something different, faster, smaller, or something-else-er, you will never outgrow it or need anything better. The current version was introduced way back in 1996, and the optics are identical to the version introduced in 1979. It is the oldest lens in Leica's catalog, and until the APO version was released in 2012 it was considered one of the very best 50mm lenses ever, and still is. I bought my 50 Cron with my M Monochrom 3-years-ago and am now considering the addition of a 50mm f/1.4 Summilux ASPH, not because it is better, but because it is different and of course faster. I will not sell the Summicron when I buy the Summilux, and it will remain my favorite lens on the M Monochrom and for film, while the Lux will likely live on my M-E, which really needs that extra stop indoors or in low light. If I owned an M240 instead of the M-E (I prefer the CCD look) I would not bother with the faster lens at all. 50mm is also an excellent place to start with the M. The frame line is large enough for easy composition, and small enough that you can really see what is going on just outside. A 35mm lens is also an excellent choice, though if you are new to rangefinder photography the 50mm gives more of that special experience. I'd recommend a 35mm next, and if you want to stay budget friendly, the 35mm f/2.5 (the older version) Summarit is exceptional lens that has a very complimentary look to the 50mm Summicron. Welcome to Leica, I think you will love it here. I strongly considered an M-E as I too am fond of CCDs. I find they require a bit more effort and care on the front end, but a bit less on the back. Ultimately though, I went with the 240. No regrets so far. Funny thing about 50mm. Like many of my era, I grew up shooting that focal length almost exclusively given it was the standard of the day and I could barely afford the camera and film let alone a second lens. Later in life, I somewhat avoided 50mm simply because I could. But I'm over that now and have matured to the point where I've rekindled a very strong fondness for that focal length. I've only had a few days with this lens, but it's already quite evident that it's a pretty special optic. I did do a lot of image study of the variants at this focal length and seriously considered the 1.4 as well as the APO. The decision came down to a one lens minimalist system versus a three lens setup for the foreseeable future. Probably sounds silly, but I somewhat chickened out, opting for greater flexibility over a few extra ticks of magic. I appreciate the recommendation on the 35mm, but if I were forced to decide today, I'd probably opt for a 28mm Elmarit on the short end and a 90mm Summicron ASPH or the Elmarit on the long (probably heresy to utter in a Leica forum, but 35mm is a focal length that I have never really gelled with). No rush though. Shooting a concert on New Years Eve and simply can't wait to do the backstage and dressing room stuff with this camera and lens. May not be fully in love yet, but the emotions are stirring for sure. Thanks both for the advice and welcome! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soden Posted December 26, 2015 Share #151 Posted December 26, 2015 What's special about an M? That's a rather large question, but I'll try to be brief. It's built around a manual model. Where all the necessary controls are quickly available. The Rangefinder is clear and bright no matter what filter is in use. The DOF scale is available, along with the feet/meter scale for quick pre-focusing. I am certainly in the camp, no rangefinder, no M. By definition. There is a host of old/new/third-party lenses that we can use natively. This include many many magical lenses. This is the start of my list, I can think of many more, but this is enough for today. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
imants Posted December 26, 2015 Share #152 Posted December 26, 2015 That's utter rubbish Imants and you do know it. Do you really think that everything should be dragged down to a base, often ephemeral and superficial level? Well that's the point it is not superficial it is language the evolving and forever changing role of the image. your problem is that you want to retain the status quo too bad the world moves on unlike the band Status Quo. Even Leica is drifting away from the traditions of rangefinder photography as the T (Rangefinder-style mirrorless) SL(Large SLR) Q(Large sensor compact) and lends its name to a lens for a camera phone the M is there to satisfy the few I do enjoy using a m at times but don't see it as a important social tool ..........................viva the smartphone thinking as we drift into the augmented reality as artificial imagery is layered on our real world Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted December 26, 2015 Share #153 Posted December 26, 2015 Well that's the point it is not superficial it is language the evolving and forever changing role of the image. your problem is that you want to retain the status quo too bad the world moves on unlike the band Status Quo. Even Leica is drifting away from the traditions of rangefinder photography as the T (Rangefinder-style mirrorless) SL(Large SLR) Q(Large sensor compact) and lends its name to a lens for a camera phone the M is there to satisfy the few I do enjoy using a m at times but don't see it as a important social tool ..........................viva the smartphone thinking as we drift into the augmented reality as artificial imagery is layered on our real world Evolving, yes. Forever changing - I think not. Adding to an existent body of imaging techniques and systems is not in itself fundamentally change.FWIW I was chatting to two people yesterday who both still shoot film - and one of whom is actually is in the process of setting up to shoot Daguerrotypes. Apparently the processing of Daguerrotypes now requires a closed circuit system! Evolution or change ? This thread asked 'what's so special about an M?', and perhaps one of its attributes is that it is used by those of us who do not want to follow the pack, don't want to engage in too much of the 99% irrelevant babble of social media and who actually enjoy using rangefinder cameras (you admit to this yourself). The 'Status Quo' of Leica M has survived a fair time and will continue to do so I suspect. For the few, probably, just like using film or shooting Daguerrotypes; is that somehow a problem? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
imants Posted December 26, 2015 Share #154 Posted December 26, 2015 Adding to an existent body of imaging techniques and systems is not in itself fundamentally change. That's exactly what it isn't doing it is not about technique it is about the role of the image not the structure The 'Status Quo' of Leica M has survived a fair time and will continue to do so I suspect. Sure the horse and buggy survived a fair time but now plays a very diminished role......................... Same way the Daguerrotypes went but now we simulate them on our phones just for fun or to create an atmosphere of permanence........... promptly we view > delete or place it in a wispy cloud Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Bedford Posted December 26, 2015 Share #155 Posted December 26, 2015 I recently bought a Sony a7 + 55mm as a photo shoot camera and got the Metabones M adapter with it. I thought, "Hmm, this thing is small and I could probably make back 5K on my Leica body if I just use the lens on the Sony..." It took me about half a day to realise the Sony is nothing like an M (240) in terms of pure handheld photographic joy. It was at that moment I realised I'll really never go back. These are taken on the M 240 with a 35mm Summarit using VSCO's Kodak Tri-X in Lightroom. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
imants Posted December 26, 2015 Share #156 Posted December 26, 2015 T (Rangefinder-style mirrorless) SL(Large SLR) Q(Large sensor compact) and lends its name to a lens for a camera phone Smart move by Leica plus the new stripped down M to keep the faithful happy until their eye sight diminishes Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted December 26, 2015 Share #157 Posted December 26, 2015 That's exactly what it isn't doing it is not about technique it is about the role of the image not the structure Sure the horse and buggy survived a fair time but now plays a very diminished role......................... Same way the Daguerrotypes went but now we simulate them on our phones just for fun or to create an atmosphere of permanence........... promptly we view > delete or place it in a wispy cloud Its about the role of some images - and generally poor ones. That's like saying don't bother about Movies because we can all shoot clips. The wispy cloud is only an ephemeral part of imagery. Many people still want hard copy - 'good' images. You are trying to say that everything has got to be ephemeral and pointless. Not so. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
platypus Posted December 26, 2015 Share #158 Posted December 26, 2015 Smart move by Leica plus the new stripped down M to keep the faithful happy until their eye sight diminishes I think that's about right....it certainly applies to me; I'm faithful and very happy to still be able to nail focus manually with my Ms. Long may it last. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted December 26, 2015 Share #159 Posted December 26, 2015 Why is ephemeral taken as a bad thing when in the long run the banal, short-sighted may possibly produce the richest view of the time it was created? Value of images is becoming inclined today to be toward series rather than a well framed, archival embalmed scene Imagine some time in the future where people discover some old media. Among the images are some 8x10" contact prints of the west, Adams and his emulators if you will. Then there are images identified as every-day images that, due to EXIF and deeper links can be attributed to what was important at the time and traced to the moment. I believe the AA kind of stuff will be tossed aside as the old stuff we know already. "He used a rangefinder" means something only to the optical athlete, a self-aggrandizemizing sort of thing. Nobody cares how you feel when you made the image. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
platypus Posted December 26, 2015 Share #160 Posted December 26, 2015 I recently bought a Sony a7 + 55mm as a photo shoot camera and got the Metabones M adapter with it. I thought, "Hmm, this thing is small and I could probably make back 5K on my Leica body if I just use the lens on the Sony..." It took me about half a day to realise the Sony is nothing like an M (240) in terms of pure handheld photographic joy. It was at that moment I realised I'll really never go back. These are taken on the M 240 with a 35mm Summarit using VSCO's Kodak Tri-X in Lightroom. Nick, these are really exceptional and the first and third shots are so very Australian (not sure about the second, maybe Brisbane?) Perhaps you would consider posting them a second time in the Australian Landscape thread which can be found in the Photo Forum under "Landscape and Travel"? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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