Jeff S Posted December 16, 2015 Share #21 Posted December 16, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) An alternative, Peter, is that for image quality (it is image quality that's important, right?) the SL shows that many of the virtues many here saw as being the essence of the M were an illusion, if image quality is the issue. There are great benefits in each camera; nothing will make the SL with zoom as compact as the M with a 50 Summilux, nor will the SL ever be as simple to use as the M-A or M60. But to suggest there's a virtue in torturing what is an elegant camera (the M with optical rangefinder) when the SL does it so much better strikes me as perhaps forgetting the strengths of every M from the M3 up to the M9-P. The M(240) extended the M, but not as well as the SL has done so. The SL didn't extend the M; without RF viewing, it's a completely different system. This is more than just semantics for me. The M240 extended the M for those who choose to use the added functionality, while maintaining traditional RF use for those who so choose (by simply turning off other functions). Exceptional IQ is available through many camera/lens systems these days. For me, camera choice has always started with the viewing system....how I see the subject....as the number one priority. If that doesn't suit, nothing else will make it work. The M has done that for 4 decades for me, and other systems have always supplemented well for other types of seeing and shooting, from 35mm to 8x10 view cameras. I think there's a phrase about horses... Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 Hi Jeff S, Take a look here What's Special About An M?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Rick Posted December 16, 2015 Share #22 Posted December 16, 2015 Peter, I'm not exactly sure what you are going after here. There doesn't seem to be anything too serious to ponder here. A lot of us have other cameras besides the M. For a lot of folks that other camera was a big DSLR with zooms and long lenses. The SL is just another camera that M owners can use to fulfill that need. But, there is more to it... The SL does offer a few other advantages over the current DSLR. The SL has the simplistic ethos of the M or maybe it is better to say it represents Leica's ethos. M users understand and are drawn to that simplistic design. Next, the SL by virtue of the EVF is going to work well with R lenses and a lot of M users also have R lenses. Leica will also facilitate these lenses in firmware. Therefore, R lenses should work well with the SL. M lenses will also work well on the SL. M lenses won't work on a DSLR. And, they have their struggles, to say the least, with current mirrorless cameras. For many, the SL is more of a single camera solution than an M. All in all, the SL is a great choice for a second camera to the M, maybe a better choice for a lot of folks than their current DSLR. Maybe, a better single camera solution than the M for a lot of folks? At this point it starts to get a little murky if we are going to discuss the mystique of the M or the RF experience... read on. The SL body is small compared to current DSLR cameras that a lot of M owners use. With a M lens on the SL it isn't a lot bigger or bulkier than an M. So, why not use it with M lenses and dump the M? The EVF is certainly good enough to be up to the task. Remember, M owners have dumped DSLR cameras once the LV was offered on the M240 in an attempt to simplify their gear even though it wasn't a perfect solution to use the M for long lenses. Conversely, the SL won't be a perfect solution to use the SL for M lenses, but it could be argued that it will be a lot less difficult to use M lenses on the SL compare with using Long R lenses on the M. It may not have the mystique or RF mojo, but it should be just as workable to focus an M lens with the EVF. As we go along, a lot of M users seem to be realizing that they may not need the M. The SL quality of build, image, simplicity,ethos and a more enjoyable experience may be offered by just owning the SL. I believe you are going to see a lot of M shooters mainly picking up the SL to shoot and just never taking the M out of the house anymore. Kind of like now, where a lot of us M shooters never seem to pick up our DSLR cameras. The SL, for many, may be the new Leica-mystique and provide the Leica-mojo. But, so what. Plenty of us will continue shooting an M... But, the wonderful thing is, there is enough Leica mystique and mojo to go around. RickLeica Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted December 16, 2015 Share #23 Posted December 16, 2015 Good summary, Rick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abram Posted December 16, 2015 Share #24 Posted December 16, 2015 I thought Tom's article here summarized the M appeal quite nicely. http://thephotofundamentalist.com/?p=2262 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted December 16, 2015 Share #25 Posted December 16, 2015 The SL body is small compared to current DSLR cameras that a lot of M owners use. With a M lens on the SL it isn't a lot bigger or bulkier than an M. So, why not use it with M lenses and dump the M? The EVF is certainly good enough to be up to the task. Remember, M owners have dumped DSLR cameras once the LV was offered on the M240 in an attempt to simplify their gear even though it wasn't a perfect solution to use the M for long lenses. Conversely, the SL won't be a perfect solution to use the SL for M lenses, but it could be argued that it will be a lot less difficult to use M lenses on the SL compare with using Long R lenses on the M. It may not have the mystique or RF mojo, but it should be just as workable to focus an M lens with the EVF. Excuse the excerpt....but for me, it's not about being 'good enough'....it's a different experience altogether. The only reason for me to bail on the M is if my eyes fail at some point to get along with RF viewing, or if Leica ruins the M and no longer services old cameras, which I doubt. Nothing to do with 'mystique' or 'mojo'. Different strokes... Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
imants Posted December 16, 2015 Share #26 Posted December 16, 2015 "old days" that it's perfect for me. Not everyone come from the old days The SL, for many, may be the new Leica-mystique and provide the Leica-mojo. But, so what. Plenty of us will continue shooting an M... But, the wonderful thing is, there is enough Leica mystique and mojo to go around. RickLeica see the mystique is alive and kicking just like statistics a fine line between truth and fiction Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted December 16, 2015 Share #27 Posted December 16, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) I will begin with simile. It used to be that we used paper diaries. Adding an entry was simple and fast. Finding a time slot suited for a new appointment was very simple; you could see not only whether there were other appointments in the vicinity of a particular time but you could see at a glance whether there were other events in the same day or week which might make a new appointment unattractive. Finding a particular appointment was not very fast but that was not a major concern. Enter the personal digital assistant or mobile phone, in short: the electronic diary. It immediately had enormous advantages over the paper one, one of the more important ones being that your real assistant could arrange appointments for you which were shown in your diary at once. You paid for those few advantages by the cumsy user interface of the diary app and invariably became the slowest bloke in the meeting to find available time slots and enter appointments made on the spot. The parallel is this: the user interface of an M type camera with the range finder is strictly limited and offers very few options. Thus, you see at a glance whether you would be able to select the focus for a particular shot. You select the focus by an "analog" movement, i.e. more distant means to turn a lever to the left while close up means to turn the lever the other way. You see when to stop turning the lever when the edges coincide. After a brief period this all works without thinking, leaving your awareness free to concentrate on what's happening in front of you or whatever the challenge of taking the picture consists of. Enter the powerful digitally assisted camera with its numerous focusing aids. You might be able or not to predict whether the autofocus or focus assist will be able to acquire the focus in a particular setting. If it does not, there are, of course, several other ways to save the shot. However, you have to recapitulate the options which are available at the time and select one of more of several controls to direct your camera. The effect is that you usually may be faster with a camera with electronic assists; once you leave the comfort zone of your automatic device, you have to break your concentration on the things that really matter and to concentrate on operating your camera. There are situations where this does not matter at all, and they are different for each individual photographer. When doing still lifes, architecture shots or macro stuff, I usually prefer the maximum flexibility of my tools I can possibly get. This is the time for EVFs, tethered shooting and so on. For other settings, I vastly prefer a camera with a strictly limited user interface I don't have to think about. This is the kind of "simplicity" I think other members already have said they loved. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted December 16, 2015 Share #28 Posted December 16, 2015 Excuse the excerpt....but for me, it's not about being 'good enough'....it's a different experience altogether. The only reason for me to bail on the M is if my eyes fail at some point to get along with RF viewing, or if Leica ruins the M and no longer services old cameras, which I doubt. Nothing to do with 'mystique' or 'mojo'. Different strokes... Jeff Good enough is a phrase I would apply equally to the RF or the EVF. Having tried the SL I actually found it easier for most situations. If, anything I was being charitable to the RF as being good enough. As for the experience, I guess, for me, I didn't come from the RF era nor did I particularly warm to the RF experience when I discovered Leica in 2008 and bought the Leica M8. It was much like the split prism or micro prism experience. Just another way to manually focus. Conversely, the EVF on the SL is an experience I enjoyed. What's not to like about a bright, sharp view. Snappy to focus, even under poor light or when there isn't something particularly easy to focus on in the RF patch... in the RF patch, I said. By the way, the mystique and mojo crap is just that. I just write about that because, it is fun to poke at. I think that some believe there is something special about the RF experience. I get that, but I don't see it any different than talking about the EVF experience. Like you say, different strokes... Rick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted December 16, 2015 Share #29 Posted December 16, 2015 I will begin with simile. To continue with a ... You turn up to a meeting realising you have forgotten your diary, you phone your secretary and annoy everyone in the room who is using their digital assistant. Or, you have your diary with you, but your secretary has made appointments on her desktop version of your diary, and she has also not brought her copy up to date because you haven't given it to her for the last couple of weeks and the two are now hopelessly conflicted. Or, you have all your diary entries in your computer, so when your phone is flat, you get onto any internet enabled device, log onto iCloud and you can see your diary, up to date, to show the entries your secretary, partner, colleagues and family have made or requested. Perhaps that analogy is stretched beyond where it had a point ... Meanwhile, you have a digital version of an optical rangefinder device designed first in the late 1940s early 1950s. The digital capability is stripped back to give the look, feel and user interface of that 60 year old camera, but with mid-2000s electronic technology. You sit smugly with other photographers while they extol the virtues of their D800 and 5DS cameras and just say "I've got a Leica" ... I really don't mind the SL unapologetically doing all the electronic things it does so well - it's good at it, and I can use the things which make Leicas great - the lenses. More so than the M, but then that camera is smaller, lighter, brings with it a discipline the SL lacks, and it's cooler. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted December 16, 2015 Share #30 Posted December 16, 2015 ....Or, you have all your diary entries in your computer, so when your phone is flat, you get onto any internet enabled device, log onto iCloud and you can see your diary, up to date, to show the entries your secretary, partner, colleagues and family have made or requested. Perhaps that analogy is stretched beyond where it had a point ... Well, yes, that was the point: that the networked version is better in so many ways than the paper one, but that actually finding a free time slot and making an appointment in a face to face meeting is much faster with the paper diary. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted December 16, 2015 Author Share #31 Posted December 16, 2015 Has anyone looked through the a la carte configurator recently? It's pretty comprehensive in both film and digital options. I wonder if this is the long term future for the M system? I appreciate it's a luxury, but isn't the M camera a luxury anyway? You're just trying to get me going again aren't you? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted December 16, 2015 Share #32 Posted December 16, 2015 Well, yes, that was the point: that the networked version is better in so many ways than the paper one, but that actually finding a free time slot and making an appointment in a face to face meeting is much faster with the paper diary. Not really - I use an iPad and I can see the whole week and month with ease. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hepcat Posted December 16, 2015 Share #33 Posted December 16, 2015 Not everyone come from the old days Perhaps not, but despite everyone's best attempts to obfuscate what's really important, if you're making a photograph, it all still boils down to composition, focus, shutter speed, aperture, and ISO. And all of the 'stuff' from the "old days" is still salient. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kilmister Posted December 16, 2015 Share #34 Posted December 16, 2015 It is possible for both sides to be correct. Pop has demonstrated that very well by simile of the diary. The SL has advantages and disadvantages. It's a matter of choice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kilmister Posted December 16, 2015 Share #35 Posted December 16, 2015 When Leica brings out an anonymous SL then I'd like to try it. Sticky tape is not really a sensible solution if paying so much. SL a la carte seems a better option. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted December 16, 2015 Author Share #36 Posted December 16, 2015 ............................ As we go along, a lot of M users seem to be realizing that they may not need the M. ........................... ......................... Yes, just this Rick. All I'm really trying to do, as ever in the parts of the forum to do with photography, is cut through all the crap and get to the bottom of what people are truly trying to do in terms of photography, and how they want and expect their cameras to help them. I know that sounds pompous and self regarding, but there are worse things than that to worry about. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted December 16, 2015 Share #37 Posted December 16, 2015 You're just trying to get me going again aren't you? Not really - I just wondered. The a la carte cameras are so beautiful (until Jaap sticks orange leather on one), and every option seems to be covered. Here's some more "crap" for you to cut through - your concern that the M will play second fiddle to the SL from here in, and not get the same quality of upgrades and functionality, is unwarranted. The M will still be the flagship. Were it me, I'd offer the EVF for the M as an accessory, I'd leave the video as a simple implementation (as they both are), and I'd stop suggesting that the camera is the R solution and "jack of all trades"; I'd sell it primarily as a compact OVF camera for fabulous lenses between 28 and 90 (with the ability to go to 16mm and 135mm). A la carte is where it's at! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted December 16, 2015 Share #38 Posted December 16, 2015 So many who favor simplicity in digital either have not done wet printing, or have forgotten how much they know (or knew) to make a great print. Making a good print is far from simple. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 16, 2015 Share #39 Posted December 16, 2015 Not really - I just wondered. The a la carte cameras are so beautiful (until Jaap sticks orange leather on one), and every option seems to be covered. Here's some more "crap" for you to cut through - your concern that the M will play second fiddle to the SL from here in, and not get the same quality of upgrades and functionality, is unwarranted. The M will still be the flagship. Were it me, I'd offer the EVF for the M as an accessory, I'd leave the video as a simple implementation (as they both are), and I'd stop suggesting that the camera is the R solution and "jack of all trades"; I'd sell it primarily as a compact OVF camera for fabulous lenses between 28 and 90 (with the ability to go to 16mm and 135mm). A la carte is where it's at! Orange? How common... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmahto Posted December 16, 2015 Share #40 Posted December 16, 2015 I am speaking for myself here... I like M lenses (small, with character, some old, some modern) and I will prefer the smallest/lightest camera that balances well with those jewel kind of lenses. My camera choice is driven by my lens choice. I don't care much about RF experience. Simplicity is preferable but I will compromise if a cheaper and lighter camera is available to take M lenses. So far M is the only game in town for me. SL is heavier and Sony is not fully optimized. For me moving back to DSLR is not an option since they don't take M lens. I like my M lens set... (How many times I wrote "M lens"!) PS: I can take 800 pics from one battery in M... Beat that!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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