Advices for constituting an M lenses kit

[Bohns]

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May I suggest that you use more 50 Summilux at first, then discover the 21mm later.

 

I wonder if later you would keep the lovely Q .

 

Thank you Arnaud.

I will follow your advice, which I had also from the Lyon's boutique manager. But I do not really understand which rationale supports it...

 

I am pretty sure I will keep the Q. I really love it, and my wife does also.

 

Regards,

Stef.

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[a.noctilux]

Stef,

Performing M photography ( with "real life finder in 3D" = not life in a plane of focussing screen) is not quite the same as with SLR.

Another route of thinking the framing and seeing photos.

 

I have learn that one focal at one time is more efficience than more focals to choose from.

Learn to have in my brain the framing let liberty to see the right moment to trigger.

 

The difference is big, and some  people used to SLR can not handle M system.

 

Arnaud

[asiafish]

Stef,

Performing M photography ( with "real life finder in 3D" = not life in a plane of focussing screen) is not quite the same as with SLR.

Another route of thinking the framing and seeing photos.

 

I have learn that one focal at one time is more efficience than more focals to choose from.

Learn to have in my brain the framing let liberty to see the right moment to trigger.

 

The difference is big, and some  people used to SLR can not handle M system.

 

Arnaud

 

Definitely agree.  When I set out walking with a camera I generally pick one lens and leave the rest at home.  The only exception is when exploring a new place, at which time I will usually have one lens on the camera and a very different one in a pocket, just in case.

[colonel]

Going to film has even less variables.

Fixed ISO, fixed focal length, just decide aperture, speed and focus ...

If you keep aperture wide open in certain circumstances then only two variables ....

And if you keep f5.6 or above and rough fixed focus length then only speed is single variable ....

The M-E/M9 is the closest I have come to film .... (At least after the M8)

[jaapv]

As for wildlife - I use an M240/EVF and 105-280 zoom with 1.4x and 2.0x  Apoextenders and I am more than happy with the results

[menos I M6]

Hey Stef, welcome to the forum and to rangefinder photography - what a wonderful kit you plan to start with!

 

May I comment that your first choices to complement your Q with a 21/3.4 Super Elmar and 50 Summilux ASPH on a M-P is an excellent choice and will last you a long time.

 

I see you described that the two lenses will be bought second hand - perfect way to save some money and with these two particular lenses surely a solid choice (I wouldn't do it any different - Leica M lenses are really solid and will last a lifetime or longer if taken well care of).

 

The only thing I would do differently after having bought new Leica bodies several times (and many second hand as well), is that the digital Leica M body I would definitely try to buy second hand.

You can easily save 1000 EUR or even more this way which is much better saved for later lens purchases than splurging it on a brand new digital M body.

 

The digital camera bodies are the one single most depreciative item in the M system and with the matured digital M these days it really must not be paid full price.

Make sure you can buy it with a shop warranty and there will be all peace of mind given that is necessary.

 

I would keep your initial purchases at the two lenses, one camera body and viewfinder and would first get accustomed with this kit.

 

You may later find that your ideas about different lenses or even your Q may change.

 

I could for example very much foresee that once you have found your way around the Leica M you want to sell your Q and simply buy a 28mm or 35mm lens instead.

The Leica M (digital or film based) truly shines especially with the 35mm and 50mm focal lengths.

There are wonderful compact, lightweight and most excellent lenses in these focal lengths available that really will surprise you and will show especially on what different optical level the Leica M is working compared with the 35mm SLR lenses you know.

 

I had my first revelation when having used a digital Nikon system with finest lenses and bought my first 50 Summilux ASPH. It blew my socks off so to speak and I was sold very quickly on the Leica M systems.

 

Don't try to buy an entire outfit on day one, get your two lenses and try to save some money on the body (second hand but with shop warranty preferably) and make decisions after having warmed up.

 

Btw - the early you make the decision to sell the Q, the least money you will loose on this camera and the more money you will have left for different Leica M lenses ;-)

[Bohns]

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Thank you very much, Dirk, for your long participation to my thread, full of interesting advices !

 

Indeed, I already bought, used, a SEM 21 and a LUX 50, the latter with a 6 months warranty from the Lyon's Leica Boutique. I also bought, new, a M-P body, taking benefit of a 0% loan offer from Leica France. The monthly amount I will pay during 24 months is very reasonable relatively to my wages, I did not use my cash, and I will have the standard 2 years Leica warranty.

 

I will not buy another lens before probably a full year. It might be a longer focal, either 75 or 90. But, as you wrote, I first need to experiment rangefinder focusing with the LUX 50.

 

I started, but not under good light conditions for the time being. I need not to use my new toys in front of my 2 boys, since the younger still lives in cloud-cuckoo land, and the kit is due to be found under the Christmas tree... So, I only play after 8.30 pm. Anyway, under those quite bad conditions, it seems I can focus quite accurately quite easily. I am just hesitating buying a 1.25x or 1.4x eyeloop, in order to widen the patch and in anticipation of the future longer focal. Any insight there ?

 

I am not sure I will sell the Q. I like very much the macro capabilities of this gem, as well as the electronical and leaf shutter, up to 1/16000 s, very usefull for wide open diaphragm pictures without the need for a filter.

If I sell a body after being acustomed to the M, it might be my Canon 5D mkIII with some heavy and bulky Canon glass. In about a year ;-)

 

Regards,

Stef.

[menos I M6]

Stef, your time of rangefinder practice after the kids are in bed sounds perfect for an old trick of getting accustomed to RF focussing:

Load the camera with a fresh battery and SD card and watch a movie.

Practice your focussing, manual exposure setting and timing, shooting stills off the TV screen.

Of course the actual focus distance does not change, so force yourself to turn the lens back to infinity after each shot and re-focus each shot anew.

 

You will very quickly learn the operation of the camera this way - as it is digital, you can waste shots all movie long, delete and start over without any costs for film and development.

 

Regarding viewfinder accessory loupes:

I do not wear glasses but my most used eye to focus does not have 20/20 vision.

I use a lot of very fast lenses and also long + fast lenses which are known to show the slightest focus mistake easily.

 

I do have the 1.25x and 1.4x Leica accessory magnifiers but I do use these magnifiers exclusively for one purpose only: they help actual framing with long lenses (think 90mm and 135mm). I find the 1.25x magnifier also helpful in aiding framing (and framing only) when dedicating the body to a 75mm lens.

 

I do not find any advantage in actual focussing with these magnifiers - the reason is that they do reduce brightness slightly and contrast just enough to impact focussing negatively.

Mainly what help they provide in magnification they do ruin in loss of contrast and brightness, hence the only advantage in aiding framing by enlarging the smaller frame with long lenses in the Leica M.

 

There is one very negative factor to take into account when using these magnifiers. The optical viewfinder of the Leica M is sensitive in accuracy of focussing in regard to the viewing position of your eye.

If you move your eye off center, you will impact the actual focussing precision.

Using a magnifier will amplify this fault. Wearing eye glasses again will amplify this fault.

 

So with these magnifiers your eye position is much more critical in order to focus precisely than without.

This is what I have found when shooting with fast long lenses.

Therefore when critical focus is needed (like with a 135/3.4 APO or 75 Summilux), I much prefer to focus without any accessories.

 

Tiredness, eye strain, physical exhaustion though have a much, much larger impact on these issues than any impact from magnifiers or the type of glasses you wear.

The critical focussing with the Leica M with fast long lenses is also a perishable skill - you want to shoot a lot in order to stay accustomed.

 

 

Re. you Canon DSLR gear - do not be so quick in dismissing the DSLR kit.

Your Canon gear can do things a Leica M never will excel at (namely long lens shooting, Macro and certain situations where the benefit from a fast AF system and fast AF lenses outweigh the negatives of the big, clumsy DSLR).

I keep a complete Nikon system around just for that purpose.

For product shots and motorsports I do prefer a DSLR with specialized lenses.

For anything else I always just grab a Leica M as it is for me the easiest and fastest camera to use.

 

There is a thread around this forum about how fast a camera the Leica M is. Of course, to me the Leica M is THE fastest camera to operate within the limits of where it excels. You can shoehorn a Leica M into use where it naturally doesn't excel too but that is more a question of taking up a challenge than actually making sense.

Your Canon gear sure is useful and it will remain as useful even after you have found out how brilliant the Leica M is.

 

Re your Q - personally I think the moment one builds a system around a Leica M a Leica Q will not really fit into that system too well.

Yes it has some technical features that could enrich the entire kit you built but to me these points would stand in the way:

 

- Q does feel and operate different enough from a M that it would bother me using them side by side

- Q does have the same sensor resolution to the M, so there is no imaging advantage using the Q instead of a M lens on a M

- when having a M body already I see 28 + 35 mm M lenses as better spent money than a Q - those lenses will be used many decades from now on any future improved M

- the Q lens stays on the Q if you will use it in 10 years or more or not

- the Q does provide very close up photography but it does with a wide angle lens with wide angle distortion close up - one might be better off with simply using a 75/2 or 90/4 Macro and crop with a Leica M

 

I have to add though that my interest in digital gadgets/toys and the all latest digital camera tech has rapidly declined towards 0 since I am using Leica M gear.

It declined so much so that until now I even didn't show any interest in upgrading to newer M cameras from my M9 + MM bodies but rather just enjoy those.

I am therefore probably more likely a critic of the Q then others who might see more advantages. So take that critic with a grain of salt.

 

Merry Christmas to you btw - must be a sight under the tree this year ;-)

[Exodies]

Given that some people prefer using a magnifier and some people don't, it seems a bad idea to buy one in anticipation. When you get a long lens, use it exclusively for a month then decide.

[Bohns]

Re. you Canon DSLR gear - do not be so quick in dismissing the DSLR kit.

Your Canon gear can do things a Leica M never will excel at (namely long lens shooting, Macro and certain situations where the benefit from a fast AF system and fast AF lenses outweigh the negatives of the big, clumsy DSLR).

I keep a complete Nikon system around just for that purpose.

For product shots and motorsports I do prefer a DSLR with specialized lenses.

For anything else I always just grab a Leica M as it is for me the easiest and fastest camera to use.

... ... ... ...

 

Merry Christmas to you btw - must be a sight under the tree this year ;-)

 

Thank you very much, again, Dirk.

 

Regarding the 5D mkIII, I need to add that I also have a 7D mkII which I use only for "fast" and wildlife photography, with a 300 f2.8 and a 70-200 f2.8, both stabilized, with or without extenders (1.4x or 2.0x). I will certainly keep this gear kit. Wildlife photo is my prefered practice, along with landscape, social portraiture, and family for which I use a set of fast primes (28, 50, 85) and a 16-35 zoom on the 5D mkIII. This is the part of the kit I intend to sell by several months, if I feel good with the M and the Q.

 

I really start to feel blocked during my travels and vaccations because of the weight, bulk and lack of discretion of the DSLR  system. This is why I bought the Q, with which I travelled twice, having only this camera. I enjoyed it so much, and the results were such "wow!" that I started thinking about the M, more and more.

 

Owning an M with a LUX 50 was already a young adult dream about 25 years ago. But since digital photo has started, I forgot about Leica. I've been caught more by the "geek" side of the photography, because I needed good level of autofocus and fast burst for my new wildlife photo hobby. Then I've been trapped into a complex, bulky and heavy system, even for easy contemplative photos, like many others. Until very recently, I was still dreaming about the Leica glass, but considered the bodies being obsolete and totally overpriced for what they were offering.

 

Then came the Q. I enjoyed again thinking about how I could capture what I was seeing, rather than what gear I was needing (and missing the moment...). It brought me 25 years back, when I was using my beloved (and lost, stolen) Olympus OM1 with a Zuiko 50f2.

 

Thank you for your wishes. I guess I will be happy, and I can tell you that I also made the necessary such that both my kids and my wife will enjoy Christmas this year 

 

Merry christmas for you, also, and for everybody from this forum who delivered all those valuable advices.

 

Regards,

Stef.

[menos I M6]

Stef, I can fully follow your thinking regarding the change of gear.

My own beginning with the Leica gear was quite similar.

 

I usually carried a Nikon D300 or D3 with two f2.8 zoom lenses and maybe a fast prime in a shoulder bag when traveling. On top of that of course came the usual amenities including 15" MacBook Pro.

Weight and bulk was the payment for the automation and performance the DSLR gear provided.

 

I didn't know much about Leica until only by accident I handled a Leica M6 in a shop someday - I was completely mystified how this camera could be so light, small and was universally regarded as one of the highest quality image makers.

 

It didn't take long until I bought that same M6 + 50 Summilux ASPH, I think it was the next day. It took me many, many months until I got accustomed to the rangefinder focussing and framing and I took many, many pictures of water hydrants, telephone poles and park benches during those months.

One year later I had added a digital body and a basic kit of lenses, which has pretty much escalated into a collection by now.

 

 

To finance some of the new Leica M lenses to be added to the 50 Summilux, I made a grave mistake though.

I sold many of my Nikon lenses, some of which being my most used and favored lenses up to then.

I thought those at that point being absolutely redundant as I liked the Leica M gear so much more.

 

Well, … fast forward a few years - I re-bought most of the Nikon lenses I sold back then (of course at a financial loss) and still have one or two lenses in the back of my head I still miss.

 

If you can afford it, wait to make that decision, selling your SLR gear (especially the lenses, selling a body doesn't hurt much but those lenses do if you find you want to have them back).

If you sell - DON'T sell lenses that were your absolute favorites just because you think a certain M lens will cover that Canon glass once being your favorite.

 

For example, I should have never, ever have sold my 85/1.4 Nikon or my 70-200/2.8, sure I love my 75/1.4 Summilux but it is entirely different from the 85/1.4 Nikon and although my mostly used focal length with that 70-200 are basically covered with 90 and 135mm Leica lenses, the utility and flexibility of the Nikon 70-200 are not achieved.

The Leica lenses do exceed the quality of the 70-200 in optical terms but photographically they do work in ENTIRELY different ways.

The Nikon 300/2.8 VR and TCs where back then what kept me in the Nikon system and prevented me from selling that now old D3 - I am glad it did.

 

For your wildlife photography people may tell you that you can use manual focus long lenses and EVF to your Leica M and make it work - this is nonsense in the end of the day.

The Leica M cannot compete with a specialized DSLR with fast long AF lenses where such a camera excels.

 

It is a sport to kind of make it work and surely it's fun but it isn't ideal.

I made it a habit for sports to shoot some motorsports with Leica M bodies and long lenses (90 - 135) and yes it is fun but the results are entirely different from what you could do with a DSLR.

 

Don't sell your SLR glass just yet if you do not have to.

[dunhoy]

Decisions, decisions...

 

I always buy glass used; over the years I have saved quite a sum amassing 21SEM, 28 Elmarit Asph, 50 Lux Asph, 75 APO Summicron and 90 Elmarit. The 50 Lux and the 21SEM are stellar - for the 21 go for the old school optical finder not the battery draining, twice the price, rebranded Olympus junk Leica pass off as a finder!

 

For a body - do you really need Live View and video? if so use a dslr - if not go for the M262 - were I buying today that would be my choice - however I got an M240 in January as the promotional deal was very good..

 

Red Dot Cameras in London are very good and always have a decent selection of used stuff!

 

Happy shopping...