skimmel Posted November 2, 2015 Author Share #21 Posted November 2, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) The major difference is not between the 50/2 APO and the 70/2.5 Summarit-S, but in the way a Leica M compares to a Leica S in actual use. The Leica M (with any lens) will always be much faster, agile, quicker to set up, acquire focus, easier to conceal and use unobtrusively, less back hurting to use than any S with any lens on it. I get completely different photographs with my S2 and my Leica M cameras. When I had my S2 for the first few months a long time ago, I actually tried (wrongfully) to use it like a M - it is like trying to park a double decker bus in a Tokyo downtown underground parking lot. The S provides simply stunning image quality on several levels which no M at this point can match. The S has severe limitations forbidding it's use for certain tasks where the Leica M (ANY Leica M) truly shines and excels, providing natural, beautiful photographs. Before comparing certain lenses, make absolutely sure that you really want / need a digital medium format camera in your life (despite it's clever camouflage as a 35mm-ish DSLR, it really is just that: a slow, big, heavy medium format digital system camera). Fortunately second hand prices came down a bit so the hurt isn't that bad when foolishly jumping to buy a Leica S - rent a S (any S) + 70mm and try it for a week extensively. After that you will know if pros outweigh the cons. The S lenses are beyond reproach the S camera though will not necessarily deliver the images YOU want it to produce. As a good example: I never go out to shoot pictures with JUST the S2 with me. I always bring a M along (mostly just a Mono + 35/2). Both allow completely different images to be taken. Thanks. Makes good sense. What do you typically use the S2 for primarily? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 2, 2015 Posted November 2, 2015 Hi skimmel, Take a look here 70mm vs the M 50mm Apo. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
menos I M6 Posted November 2, 2015 Share #22 Posted November 2, 2015 Thanks. Makes good sense. What do you typically use the S2 for primarily? It is my first choice for quick product shots with the Carl-Zeiss 120/4 Apo-Makro-Planar, 70/2.5 and 35/2.5. Other than that I bought it mainly for portraits, lugging around when mainly using Leica M. My most favorite lenses: 70/2.5 Summarit (this really is the medium format equivalent of the Leica 50 Summicron of the modern age and it is the only lens anyone really NEEDS with a S in my opinion) 80/2 Planar (Contax 645) 110/2 Planar (Hasselblad 6x6) 120/4 APO-Makro-Planar (Contax 645) 300/2.8 APO Mamiya (Mamiya 645) A few shots are on my flickr: https://www.flickr.com/search/?tags=leicas2sn3800017 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xiaubauu2009 Posted November 2, 2015 Share #23 Posted November 2, 2015 I have both lenses.. The 50 is in a class of its own. The best 35mm lens ever made. PERIOD. The 70mm is an MF stunner and readily holds its own against the 50mm. The 70mm BOKEH is different but equally appealing... Albert :) I think OTUS will disagree... hahahah Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xiaubauu2009 Posted November 2, 2015 Share #24 Posted November 2, 2015 It is my first choice for quick product shots with the Carl-Zeiss 120/4 Apo-Makro-Planar, 70/2.5 and 35/2.5. Other than that I bought it mainly for portraits, lugging around when mainly using Leica M. My most favorite lenses: 70/2.5 Summarit (this really is the medium format equivalent of the Leica 50 Summicron of the modern age and it is the only lens anyone really NEEDS with a S in my opinion) 80/2 Planar (Contax 645) 110/2 Planar (Hasselblad 6x6) 120/4 APO-Makro-Planar (Contax 645) 300/2.8 APO Mamiya (Mamiya 645) A few shots are on my flickr: https://www.flickr.com/search/?tags=leicas2sn3800017 My favorite are the 70 and 100cron for S... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Warwick Posted November 2, 2015 Share #25 Posted November 2, 2015 The S provides simply stunning image quality on several levels which no M at this point can match. For those of you that use S, what do you think is causing the higher image quality vs. the M? A scenario - I've significantly resampled an M240 file to 40" wide. I've then resampled the S007 (which I road tested) by the equivalent amount, and this gives us a 50" wide print (ie, a 25% wider print that reflects its 50% higher megapixel count). From that perspective, the "detail" looks similar, as you'd expect. And yet, to my eyes rightly or wrongly, many things look different with the S007 file ..... the S007 file looks significantly SMOOTHER. Colors from the S look more realistic out of camera. Nothing seems to jar with the S files. Tonality looks better from the S. The main aspect (aside from buttery smoothness) is the feeling of more depth and 3D'ness from the S files. Is this due to the larger sensor on the S? Or are the S lenses posting more micro-contrast? For me, the 50 APO allows the M to come much closer to "S quality" compared to other M lenses I've used (eg, 35mm ASPH, 50mm Summi v5), but this smoothness and 3D look from the S007 really was unsurpassed to my eyes. Thoughts? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McMaster Posted November 2, 2015 Share #26 Posted November 2, 2015 I suspect a mix of larger sensor (same as film days) and the larger lenses allow better correction. When I first got my Monochrom I was scanning in FP4+ Hasselblad negs, the Leica lenses gave more detail than the 3200dpi scans but the 6x6 tonality was more subtle. The M lenses as superb for their size, it take an Otus sized lens to beat them, but the S lenses are big - this is a 28mm Summicron beside an S 35mm john Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted November 3, 2015 Share #27 Posted November 3, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) The S, like any recent serious medium format digital, produces true 16bit files. I cannot understand why this fact is mentioned so little. This makes in fact the very major difference between Nikon D800 files and files from a S. At same resolution out of the camera these files look significantly different, the Leica files having better tonality (and also crisper details as for its lack of AA filter. In my opinion all this racing to higher resolutions, more buttons, video and the use of electronic viewfinders is a full on race into the exact wrong direction! What we need with good cameras is true 16bit file depth and wider dynamic range instead of resolution. Also: any comparison of up sampled or stitched files vs native files from any high res camera is unfortunately entirely meaningless. The sampling taking place during stitching / up sampling destroys the exact details you want to compare with the S files, where the S files truly shine. This in my opinion makes comparisons only valid, when comparing with similarly high resolution digital cameras (if detail, acuity, micro contrast is what you are about to compare). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent M10 Posted November 3, 2015 Share #28 Posted November 3, 2015 This thread has been helpful. I have both lenses but actually have wanted to pare things down to one system (limitations help spur creativity). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerndReini Posted November 3, 2015 Share #29 Posted November 3, 2015 If you really want to pare things down, get rid of the S-system. Keep only the M and 50 Apo, shoot 1,000 frames a month with it, edit them down to 100, print 10, and keep 1 for your portfolio. After two years of this, you will have matured as an artist and have a great portfolio of what you really wanted to shoot instead of what you thought you wanted to shoot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted November 3, 2015 Share #30 Posted November 3, 2015 If you really want to pare things down, get rid of the S-system. Keep only the M and 50 Apo, shoot 1,000 frames a month with it, edit them down to 100, print 10, and keep 1 for your portfolio. After two years of this, you will have matured as an artist and have a great portfolio of what you really wanted to shoot instead of what you thought you wanted to shoot. Great advice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xiaubauu2009 Posted November 3, 2015 Share #31 Posted November 3, 2015 If you really want to pare things down, get rid of the S-system. Keep only the M and 50 Apo, shoot 1,000 frames a month with it, edit them down to 100, print 10, and keep 1 for your portfolio. After two years of this, you will have matured as an artist and have a great portfolio of what you really wanted to shoot instead of what you thought you wanted to shoot. Agree!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent M10 Posted November 3, 2015 Share #32 Posted November 3, 2015 If you really want to pare things down, get rid of the S-system. Keep only the M and 50 Apo, shoot 1,000 frames a month with it, edit them down to 100, print 10, and keep 1 for your portfolio. After two years of this, you will have matured as an artist and have a great portfolio of what you really wanted to shoot instead of what you thought you wanted to shoot. That's a false premise. Why would I have to get rid of the S system and pare down to an M to "mature as an artist"? Is everyone using an S without having used an M first a hack? Why not an S and 70mm for two years? Sorry, but not all of us feel the need to emulate Ralph Gibson or shoot 30 frames a day. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
albireo_double Posted November 3, 2015 Share #33 Posted November 3, 2015 Any camera and lens are worthless if you don't have it on you when a potentially great photograph presents itself. And herein may be the answer - the M system for when "great photographs may present themselves" and the S system for when you "make great photographs happen". The S system, in my experience, can be too big and heavy to take take along for occasions where photography is not going to be the principal objective, e.g. hiking, skiing, having lunch with friends, attending family celebration...etc. But it is definitely the better system for occasions where "distractions" can be left aside and photography is the main goal. By the way, the Summicron-S 100 on the 007 is absolutely amazing (when it finally gets to focus right...which is a bit of a problem...acknowledged by Leica and to be solved through a FW update, I am told). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerndReini Posted November 3, 2015 Share #34 Posted November 3, 2015 That's a false premise. Why would I have to get rid of the S system and pare down to an M to "mature as an artist"? Is everyone using an S without having used an M first a hack? Why not an S and 70mm for two years? Sorry, but not all of us feel the need to emulate Ralph Gibson or shoot 30 frames a day. My bad, I should have specified. I don't care which camera you get rid of as long as you limit your options. By all means keep the S and get rid of the M and my rule still applies. You will just come away with a different portfolio. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daedalus2000 Posted November 3, 2015 Share #35 Posted November 3, 2015 And herein may be the answer - the M system for when "great photographs may present themselves" and the S system for when you "make great photographs happen". The S system, in my experience, can be too big and heavy to take take along for occasions where photography is not going to be the principal objective, e.g. hiking, skiing, having lunch with friends, attending family celebration...etc. But it is definitely the better system for occasions where "distractions" can be left aside and photography is the main goal. By the way, the Summicron-S 100 on the 007 is absolutely amazing (when it finally gets to focus right...which is a bit of a problem...acknowledged by Leica and to be solved through a FW update, I am told). Is the focus problem specific to the 007 or the other S cameras as well? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
albireo_double Posted November 3, 2015 Share #36 Posted November 3, 2015 I don't know. It is noticeably slower / less secure on the 007 than the Summarit 70, for instance. I haven't tested it on my S2 yet. I tried two copies and both were the same on 007. The problem is that it hunts more. This is the info that I got back from customer support: "We noticed that the 100 mm Summicron sometimes fails to find the contrast points that are necessary for the AF to focus at the right position, specially in lightly dark conditions. That will be fixed with a software update as well. We´re already working on this issue". I am confident that they will fix it so I bought the lens. It really shines with portraits. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
skimmel Posted November 4, 2015 Author Share #37 Posted November 4, 2015 I was at PhotoExpo Plus and the Leica folks told me that a firmware is coming out soon to help with autofocus. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS Posted November 20, 2015 Share #38 Posted November 20, 2015 I have the 50 APO (plus other lenses), plus an S2-P with the 70mm (and other S lenses). The 50 APO leaves other M lenses away, the S (with any lens) is another level.... sorry ;-) john +1,000,000 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS Posted November 20, 2015 Share #39 Posted November 20, 2015 Well, great. I was just about to sell off my APO to fund the 007. Now I've got to think twice about that. Sell it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent M10 Posted November 20, 2015 Share #40 Posted November 20, 2015 Selling this weekend. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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