NZDavid Posted October 24, 2015 Share #21 Posted October 24, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) I am perfectly happy for Leica to bring in new types of cameras -- as long as they don't spread engineering talent too thin, as mentioned above -- and as long as they can keep refining the M design. It is a true classic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 Hi NZDavid, Take a look here Thank You Leica for SL - unexpected occasion to love my M more and more. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Ai_Print Posted October 24, 2015 Share #22 Posted October 24, 2015 "Thank you" Leica SL for taking money away from hiring more repair and maintenance techs that could possibly bring down the turn around time of a Solms based repair from 3 months to 3 weeks. And "thanks" for also taking money away from creating a comprehensive gear loaner program for pros who are staying away from the brand due to lack of what is pretty much industry standard practice. Might be time for Leica to wake up in this regard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
traphagen Posted October 24, 2015 Share #23 Posted October 24, 2015 Re: a comprehensive gear loaner program -- when I first started investing in Leica, I called Leica NJ and asked about a gear loaner program for working professionals -- I have CPS and have used it on my Canon gear. I was told they would certainly make every effort to accommodate a loaner if needed. I haven't required it and won't count on it, but I believed them. But yes, an official program would be good. BTW -- shot with the SL at PhotoPlus Expo -- I'm sure several new standards will be set with it. It's quite remarkable. And heavy, with an incredibly solid build. That thing could double as a weapon easy enough. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
4X5B&W Posted October 24, 2015 Share #24 Posted October 24, 2015 I have to say, that my current kit of a M240 and MM does pretty much everything I need it to do. I have 2 R lenses left over from my Leicaflex days, the 100 Apo Macro and the 180 Apo-telyt, and they work just fine with Live View on the M240 with a tripod. My M lenses are a great complement for both colour and Monochrome work….I'm good !! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Barnack Posted October 24, 2015 Share #25 Posted October 24, 2015 Its not that heavy - 1DX and 24-70 would be around the same With a 300f2.8 its closer to 4 kilos An S with lens would be around 2kg too Its only heavy compared to an M M-P with 35 Summicron ASPH = 905 g. or 31.92 oz. S typ 006 with 70mm Summarit = 2009.41 g. or 70.88 oz. SL with lens = 2000 g. or 70.54 oz. So we have a medium format weight camera with a 24x36 mm size sensor that is priced similarly to the M-P. I'm not sure who this will appeal to, other than extreme low light photographers and those who must have autofocus... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted October 24, 2015 Share #26 Posted October 24, 2015 M-P with 35 Summicron ASPH = 905 g. or 31.92 oz. S typ 006 with 70mm Summarit = 2009.41 g. or 70.88 oz. SL with lens = 2000 g. or 70.54 oz. So we have a medium format weight camera with a 24x36 mm size sensor... All very true, but for comparing cameras with (1) a small f2 35mm lens, (2) a large AF f/2.5 70mm lens and (3) AF IS f/2.8-4 24-90mm zoom. Not that informative, really. If your point is the SL and zoom is heavy compared to an M and any lens (both being 35mm), I doubt anyone would disagree with you. More accuratley, compare the A7r2, d800e and 5dm3 with similar zooms with the SL and zoom - I haven't because I'm pretty confident the SL and lens will still be ... heavy. I think we know that. For what it's worth, all my M cameras are heavy for what they are. The first reaction of anyone who picks up any of my cameras is, they're heavy. They don't have autofocus? Geez. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted October 24, 2015 Share #27 Posted October 24, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) .............. For what it's worth, all my M cameras are heavy for what they are. The first reaction of anyone who picks up any of my cameras is, they're heavy. They don't have autofocus? Geez. This is the interesting crux of the matter, which you'll appreciate perhaps better than most: Most people would consider the lack of AF a severe disadvantage, but for those few who want a superb MF RF system, a premium is worth paying, just as most people would consider the lack of an LCD monitor a disadvantage, but for the tiny number who prefer it that way, it's worth paying up for. The question about the SL is whether it will offer something unusual or even unique, sufficient to command the premium price. The most interesting feature is not its ability to use R lenses, macro or telephotos etc., (these are commonplace now) but its viewfinder and, I hope, the image quality it delivers. But unless these two features are, and stay ahead of the competition, I feel its premium price will really be a matter of riding piggy-back on the well established identity of other Leica cameras and not on its own intrinsic merits as a DSLR alternative. The other possibility is that people simply love it and buy it for no other reason. This would be nice. Not everything need be reduced to faux-objective comparisons. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted October 24, 2015 Share #28 Posted October 24, 2015 I agree with the first part, but less so the second. If we just look at price of Leica system camera bodies: S(007) $16,900.00 SL(601) $7,450.00 Monochrom(246) $7,450.00 M-P(240) $6,996.00 T $1,628.00 So, the same price as the Monochrom(246). Is that really surprising? It's a new system camera, in the same way as any system camera. Even if you said it doesn't do anything any better than an M (which I don't really accept - it's not an M), why would it not be priced the same? I agree that if this system does not stand alone, it will die. I am trying extremely hard to be objective here. I haven't held the camera, used it, and I've certainly not gone all STEVE HUFF over it (squealing like a school girl over the latest Sony). All I've said so far is, I like it. The rest of my posting is to divert the assumption this has something to do with the M - I don't see it does, save that both are 35mm full frame cameras. So, what does it offer that the M doesn't (to command its premium price)? Well, if you consider both are 35mm system cameras; one with an optical rangefinder and fabulous compact manual lenses; and the other with EVF and AF lenses, just starting out, then doesn't it make sense? Both system cameras priced at the same level, both developed to be the best they can be in their respective market sectors? The M is compromised in available range using its optical view finder. The SL has made no compromise for size - it is what it is. I'm intrigued at the bold statement that the new Summilux-SL 50/1.4 ASPH will be the "new reference lens of this focal length". Marketing hubris? The competition will be Leica's own APO-Summicron-M 50/2 ASPH and the Zeiss Otus 55/1.4. Leica knows how to make no compromise lenses, I guess, so we can expect it to be very good, if big and heavy ... I'd love to see some non-faux-objective comparisons as it might help to cut through some of the reactions so far, based on nothing much (that is not intended to be snide). Cheers John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted October 25, 2015 Share #29 Posted October 25, 2015 I agree with most of what has been said so far in this thread, and I've said elsewhere on other threads that I sincerely applaud and appreciate that Leica created an entirely new system to appeal to the mirrorless-EVF crowd rather than morph the M system into a camera equivalent of a Swiss Army knife. The implementation of the EVF on the M240 has its limitations compared to a dedicated EVF camera, but it really isn't all that bad as a special-use accessory to expand the system's versatility. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
almoore Posted October 25, 2015 Share #30 Posted October 25, 2015 More accuratley, compare the A7r2, d800e and 5dm3 with similar zooms with the SL and zoom - I haven't because I'm pretty confident the SL and lens will still be ... heavy. I think we know that. I'm waiting for the first person to make the case that the weight of the SL is somehow more organic and therefore more desirable than the horrible dead weight of the Japanese competition. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mornnb Posted October 25, 2015 Share #31 Posted October 25, 2015 The Leica SL is the future of photography. And is the most innovative thing Leica has done in over 40 years. In 5 to 10 years all cameras from Canon, Nikon, Sony etc will look like this. The industry is undergoing a change. Like rangefinder to SLR in the 60s, today the transition is from through the lens to through the sensor via EVF. That is the significance of this camera, it is the first professional camera of a type that will take over the industry. However the problem is that Leica has priced it out of its target market. Who are shooting on much cheaper Canon, Nikon and Sony bodies. This is a major missed opportunity for Leica to have a mainstream hit, for the concept won't really take off until Canon and Nikon figure out how to do it for half the price. Well, at least the SL is proof that Leica is serious about creating true professional tools for working and serious photographers and is not just a luxury brand. It is Leica returning to their roots, but at this price point it will only be a niche product. Had it been around $4500 it could be a real threat to Canon and Nikon's market share. This could have done for Leica what the iPod did for Apple, and been the camera that returned Leica to their mainstream glory of the 50s and 60s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted October 25, 2015 Share #32 Posted October 25, 2015 However the problem is that Leica has priced it out of its target market. Who are shooting on much cheaper Canon, Nikon and Sony bodies. This is a major missed opportunity for Leica to have a mainstream hit, for the concept won't really take off until Canon and Nikon figure out how to do it for half the price. Hasn't Leica always "priced itself out of its target market"? I can't remember when it hasn't been open to that accusation. Is this why Leica is still a niche manufacturer who had a survival struggle a few years back? Or is this why Leica is still around making high quality camera systems after 100+ years? These are rhetorical questions - I certainly don't know the answer! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted October 25, 2015 Share #33 Posted October 25, 2015 The Leica SL is the future of photography. it is the first professional camera of a type that will take over the industry. However the problem is that Leica has priced it out of its target market. the concept won't really take off until Canon and Nikon figure out how to do it for half the price. Had it been around $4500 it could be a real threat to Canon and Nikon's market share. Even if Canikon's verson was priced the same or even a little more than an SL it would still be more economical for pros as long as the EOS or F adapters allow in-lens AF and IS/VR to remain functional. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmahto Posted October 25, 2015 Share #34 Posted October 25, 2015 Even if Canikon's verson was priced the same or even a little more than an SL it would still be more economical for pros as long as the EOS or F adapters allow in-lens AF and IS/VR to remain functional. No Leica will be priced the same/similar to Canikon. That's given. I hear that Sony A7xx allows full AF functionality for EOS lenses. Does that mean Canon folks are moving to Sony bodies? Not a rhetorical, a real question. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted October 25, 2015 Share #35 Posted October 25, 2015 I'm waiting for the first person to make the case that the weight of the SL is somehow more organic and therefore more desirable than the horrible dead weight of the Japanese competition. I can't imagine what that case would look like. Is there a virtue of light over heavy? Not that I'm aware of. Cameras weigh what they weigh - I never really give it a second thought. Many here complain about the weight of their M cameras with Noctiluxes and the larger lenses (AA Summicron 90, 75 Summilux etc) - a new smartphone is probably the solution. The camera is heavy compared to lots of alternatives - it is what it is. Some one (can't remember who) said it felt like the best made camera he'd ever held. Sounds likely. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted October 25, 2015 Share #36 Posted October 25, 2015 No Leica will be priced the same/similar to Canikon. That's given. I hear that Sony A7xx allows full AF functionality for EOS lenses. Does that mean Canon folks are moving to Sony bodies? Not a rhetorical, a real question. The question was how the Canikon might be priced compared to the Leica. Is there a virtue of light over heavy? Not that I'm aware of. Cameras weigh what they weigh - I never really give it a second thought. Many here complain about the weight of their M cameras with Noctiluxes and the larger lenses (AA Summicron 90, 75 Summilux etc) - a new smartphone is probably the solution. What feels fine on my shoulder for 10 minutes feels 10x heavier after 10 hours. Fortunately the camera industry isn't dictated by condescending arrogance, so there are a multitude of high-quality light-weight options other than a smartphone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted October 25, 2015 Share #37 Posted October 25, 2015 I'm waiting for the first person to make the case that the weight of the SL is somehow more organic and therefore more desirable than the horrible dead weight of the Japanese competition. It would look like a Quaker Oats box with a teapot cozy on one end. Add Tinker Toy wheels and pull it behind you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted October 25, 2015 Share #38 Posted October 25, 2015 I'm waiting for the first person to make the case that the weight of the SL is somehow more organic and therefore more desirable than the horrible dead weight of the Japanese competition. Obviously this will occur when the patented anti-gravity chip is incorporated in the revised model, tuneable to the user's preference of course. As it stand, asa 'system camera' it looks as heavy as its competition - that is too heavy. Actually, in my experience, a full Billingham 550 weighs the same whatever camera system sits inside - too much. And its wrecks your back. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted October 25, 2015 Share #39 Posted October 25, 2015 "Thank you" Leica SL for taking money away from hiring more repair and maintenance techs that could possibly bring down the turn around time of a Solms based repair from 3 months to 3 weeks. And "thanks" for also taking money away from creating a comprehensive gear loaner program for pros who are staying away from the brand due to lack of what is pretty much industry standard practice. Might be time for Leica to wake up in this regard. Have you talked to Leica about their 'pro repair service'. In my (fortunately) limited experience, it is as easily good/better than the others I've tried. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarav Posted October 25, 2015 Share #40 Posted October 25, 2015 No doubts that SL is great piece of Leica developers and engineers. No doubts that image quality and compability with other lens would be well demanded by Leica community. No doubts that waiting list for that camera will be huge for the first 3-6 months after introduction. I am sure that build quality of the camera would be great, no doubts here as well. But for me, introduction of the SL became the unexpected and paradox occasion to take my M9 and M240 from the camera bags and tell them both - I love you my little friends! Sometimes we need something new to come to appreciate what we already have. The only sad feeling I have is that Leica spent so many time, effort, ideas and money for creating the product ( I mean SL ) which unexpectedly and surprisingly convinced me that I am more than happy man, having my M9 and M240. Thank you Leica for that remainder about M... I totally agree. To me this new SL is a waste of research time and money. A line of production which in five years will be probably dismantled, like T, X and maybe Q ones. Yes! I'm in love with M-System, and I'm happy. I'm happy to read rumors about new lenses (M), rumors about new cameras (M), and I'm happy when I see physical new products in the M-line which I can buy. I know that X, T, Q, S...Z, K, J, W are wonderful Made in Germany cameras but I don't think the revenue is up to the developing costs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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