Flare with the TRI

[Guest leicawanabe]

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I have only had the lens for 2 days now and I am seeing lots of flare in the photos where the IR filter is used. This could be because the filter is so far away fromn the front element.

 

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[Guest guy_mancuso]

Exactly . The 67mm filter holder can cause lots of flare. Sold mine immediately after one day. Really want to get John's Wate adapter to fit a leica 49mm filter inside hit and the standard hood that goes on it.

 

The 67mm filter holder also has holes in the back so if the sun is behind you . flare can be really bad since it just reflects back in the lens.

[Guest leicawanabe]

Look at the shadow. That is exactly where the sun was. behind me.

 

Next week I am machining a new filter holder that will resolve this problem for me by using a smaller filter, keeping it close to the front element and eliminating holes.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Jorge have you seen Johns design of the adapter, need to check that out. Works great.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Here is a shot from today but a section of the image but as you can see the top is the normal hood that comes with the lens than just below that is the adapter and on the inside you take the glass from a leica 49mm IR filter and place it on the inside. works like a charm and no flare anywhere . There are several threads on this setup that you can read up on and get the info you need to get one

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[Guest leicawanabe]

thanks ....

[Guest guy_mancuso]

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Do a search on WATE and the threads hopefully will come up. Frankly i would not go without this adapter on it

[dseelig]

I was a little unnerved woth the lack of nuetrality in the corner with the tri and John's adpater was wondering if that was because the filter in Johns adapter was so much smaller then the leica filter adapter. I was hoping Sean Ried was going to get a 67 from leica. Can anyone test a larger filter and the Milch adapter and see if there si a differnce in the color nietrality in the corners? David

[gravastar]

I was a little unnerved woth the lack of nuetrality in the corner with the tri and John's adpater was wondering if that was because the filter in Johns adapter was so much smaller then the leica filter adapter. I was hoping Sean Ried was going to get a 67 from leica. Can anyone test a larger filter and the Milch adapter and see if there si a differnce in the color nietrality in the corners? David

The diameter of the filter shouldn't make a difference since the angle of the light rays which pass through the filter remains the same regardless of diameter. There is however a significant difference between the B+W 486 filters and the Leica UV-IR cut filters when used with very wide angle lenses. The B+W filters show cyan corners when used with the WATE. I've just today obtained a 49mm Leica filter and swapped out the B+W glass I had in John's adapter. From a very quick indoor test it looks as if the cyan corners have gone.

 

Bob.

[wlaidlaw]

It is not just the TRI that gets flare. Look at the IR filter flare on this one taken yesterday evening with a Biogon 35 (supposed to be very flare resistant) and a Leica IR/UV filter. I know it is taken "contre-jour" but I would not have expected to get flare as bad as this with a multi-coated filter.

 

Wilson

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[marknorton]

Next week I am machining a new filter holder that will resolve this problem for me by using a smaller filter, keeping it close to the front element and eliminating holes.

 

Why re-invent the wheel when John has done all the work for you? Those threads are not trivial to replicate and at ($140? - I forget), John's adapter is a steal.

 

The Leica filter holder doesn't have much going for it, TBH, unless you are shooting with film in which case you will need the larger filter. As a minimum, I would tape up the two holes and zone focus.

 

Guy, has one of these filter holders landed on Stefan's desk by the way?

[marknorton]

I was a little unnerved woth the lack of nuetrality in the corner with the tri and John's adpater was wondering if that was because the filter in Johns adapter was so much smaller then the leica filter adapter. I was hoping Sean Ried was going to get a 67 from leica. Can anyone test a larger filter and the Milch adapter and see if there si a differnce in the color nietrality in the corners? David

 

Guy reported this some time ago, and Bob has confirmed that the Leica filter works better than the B+W filter. The firmware upgrade to handle this widest of Leica lenses (and the most severe cyan drift therefore) is critically matched to the characteristics of the filter.

 

If there was a problem with filter size, you'd see hard vignetting in the corners and the angle of view (16mm lens, 27*18mm sensor), position of the entrance pupil and filter diameter/position in front of the lens comes out fine when you so the analysis.

[jaapv]

It is not just the TRI that gets flare. Look at the IR filter flare on this one taken yesterday evening with a Biogon 35 (supposed to be very flare resistant) and a Leica IR/UV filter. I know it is taken "contre-jour" but I would not have expected to get flare as bad as this with a multi-coated filter.

 

Wilson

 

Did you use a lenshood here, Wilson? Quite a lot of flare going on....

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Guy reported this some time ago, and Bob has confirmed that the Leica filter works better than the B+W filter. The firmware upgrade to handle this widest of Leica lenses (and the most severe cyan drift therefore) is critically matched to the characteristics of the filter.

 

If there was a problem with filter size, you'd see hard vignetting in the corners and the angle of view (16mm lens, 27*18mm sensor), position of the entrance pupil and filter diameter/position in front of the lens comes out fine when you so the analysis.

 

This is true the Leica filter is really needed for the WATE and John's adpter . The B+W still leaves a cyan cast as the leica does not. As far as flare you just have to be careful with or without a filter , in general though filters can cause flare and just becuase you have a lens shade on means nothing, it simply may not be enough given the angle of the sun. i use my left hand to shade my lens sometimes but been doing that for years anyway.

[wlaidlaw]

Did you use a lenshood here, Wilson? Quite a lot of flare going on....

 

Jaap,

 

I was using the standard Zeiss ventilated metal hood for the Biogon 35mm, which never comes off the lens. I have other shots taken just after the one I posted, with a bright pink corner from flare. I only had the 35 Biogon with me, as the Nocti is still on holiday in Solms. I was very surprised too at the amount of flare. It looks to me like light bouncing off the sensor, hitting the filter and bouncing back again. Very annoying because they were supposed to be for a magazine, and most are useless. I am going to be lucky to get 8-10 good shots out of the 90 odd I took. The only good thing is since they are not paying for the photography, they cannot complain too much (it is for a charity's in-house magazine).

 

This is exactly what I feared when I first heard of the filter solution to the IR problem. I posted as much but lots of people said I was being overly pessimistic and that modern multi-coated filters did not give rise to flare. I am sorry to be proved right in my pessimism. If the Biogon does this, other lenses will be much worse like the old flare-monsters, the pre-ASPH luxes.

 

Wilson

[stunsworth]

WIlson, in the shot you posted above did you also take the same shot without a filter to prove that it's really the filter that's causing the problem? Looking at the image it looks as if the sun was _just_ outside the frame, and in my experience this is where flare can be at its worst - it's often useful to use the palm of your hand as an additional lens hood to prevent sunlight hitting the front element.

[asmith]

How does one contact John Milich about getting one of his adapters?

Alwyn

[wlaidlaw]

WIlson, in the shot you posted above did you also take the same shot without a filter to prove that it's really the filter that's causing the problem? Looking at the image it looks as if the sun was _just_ outside the frame, and in my experience this is where flare can be at its worst - it's often useful to use the palm of your hand as an additional lens hood to prevent sunlight hitting the front element.

 

Steve,

 

I did not realize until I got home and "developed" them in C1, how bad the flare was, so no I did not take the filter off. Many of the choir were wearing lightweight black dinner jackets/tuxedos/dresses and I did not want them to look like a Carolina glee club in matching magenta outfits, so the filter stayed firmly on.

 

I used to have a device which fixed onto the tripod socket and had a flexy 'snake' with a very thin matte black alloy 8" x 8" plate on it, which you position appropriately as a shade. I looked for it last light before I left, as I guessed a low sun at 7-8.30PM was going to be a problem but it has vanished (been tidied into a dustbin I suspect). I was doing my best to keep the sun well to the side of the shots or put a tree between but I was very limited in shooting angles and in about 50% of the otherwise nice shots, there is perceptible flare. I am sure, given the often circular or skewed circle plus pink colour of the flare object, that it is the filter. You can often see pink reflections from the filter on a wall when you are shooting, like from a flat wristwatch crystal.

 

Wilson

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[sean_reid]

Various thoughts:

 

If I get a 67 I will test it but I personally would never consider using one on the WATE for my own work. John's adapter is the way to go, IMHO. I'll test the stock Leica WATE-filter combination simply to be thorough - wouldn't actually ever use it myself.

 

The M8 firmware is tuned to the Leica IR filter but it doesn't fully correct WATE files made with either filter (depending on the light source). Its not that the Leica filter actually works better on the M8, its just that the firmware is tuned to it.

 

Even the best MC filter in world can show reflections and flare under certain conditions, as I've been writing about for the past few months. In certain lighting, the best way to go is to leave the filter off. I discussed this in the 'M8 Updates" article, for example.

 

Lastly, I'd like to note again that the cyan is not just something that appears in the corners and its not a cyan cast over the frame. Its a drift, in intensity, that increases as one moves further and further off axis.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

Steve,

 

I did not realize until I got home and "developed" them in C1, how bad the flare was, so no I did not take the filter off. Many of the choir were wearing lightweight black dinner jackets/tuxedos/dresses and I did not want them to look like a Carolina glee club in matching magenta outfits, so the filter stayed firmly on.

 

I used to have a device which fixed onto the tripod socket and had a flexy 'snake' with a very thin matte black alloy 8" x 8" plate on it, which you position appropriately as a shade. I looked for it last light before I left, as I guessed a low sun at 7-8.30PM was going to be a problem but it has vanished (been tidied into a dustbin I suspect). I was doing my best to keep the sun well to the side of the shots or put a tree between but I was very limited in shooting angles and in about 50% of the otherwise nice shots, there is perceptible flare. I am sure, given the often circular or skewed circle plus pink colour of the flare object, that it is the filter. You can often see pink reflections from the filter on a wall when you are shooting, like from a flat wristwatch crystal.

 

Wilson

 

Hi Wilson,

 

I think what you may find is that when you're shooting into the light, you'll want to take the filters off (or change vantage point). Is not the fault of the lens, of course - it can happen with any lens. I deal with this at weddings, for example.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean