estone888 Posted May 25, 2007 Share #1 Posted May 25, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) I've used Leica M cameras since getting my first M3 in 1972. (I currently use an M7 with a variety of lenses, although the 35 -lux is my desert island lens.) What I love about them is that they have become simply a part of the way I see when I am shooting photos. I never think about the camera, it's almost as if it's an extension of my eyes. I anticipated the arrival of the M8 with a great deal of excitement. I even reserved one before they were released. But then I canceled my reservation after hearing about the initial teething problems. Many of those problems have since been fixed, but not all of them, not enough of them. I've been trying to decide whether or not to buy the M8 sometime soon, but am now leaning toward waiting - perhaps the M9. It seems to me that all the concern about having to use this filter or that filter, changing the menu settings to this or that to accommodate, lens coding, banding, lines, cyan vignetting, battery failures, what software profile to use, etc. are the antithesis of what I have loved about using my Leicas all these years. I love my Leica not because of the technology, but because I don't have to give any thought to the technology. If there is someone out there happily using an M8 who had the same misgivings, could you please tell me how they were overcome. A digital Leica would be a dream come true, but only if it retained the things I have always loved about Leicas. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 25, 2007 Posted May 25, 2007 Hi estone888, Take a look here Getting the impression, not ready for prime time. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Guest sirvine Posted May 25, 2007 Share #2 Posted May 25, 2007 Have you used an M8 yet? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
estone888 Posted May 25, 2007 Author Share #3 Posted May 25, 2007 Nope. I haven't had a chance to. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sirvine Posted May 25, 2007 Share #4 Posted May 25, 2007 Well there you go! Get one in your hands ASAP, and get back to us. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodyspedden Posted May 25, 2007 Share #5 Posted May 25, 2007 No doubt that the M8 is still somewhat of a work in progress. If you are a color Jpeg shooter the problems that still exist with auto white balance won't be corrected until a future firmware release. On the other hand, if you are willing to shoot raw (and most serious photographers do) the M8 as it exists today is a wonderful tool. While it was a pain to have to buy the UV/IR filters the quality of the files more than compensates. I can't imagine not having this wonderful camera and sadly my M6 TTL's sit in the bin gathering dust. Going back to film after using the M8 is only for very rare occasions. Just my humble opinion but I bet if you can use one for a day you will own it by evening. Woody Spedden Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankg Posted May 25, 2007 Share #6 Posted May 25, 2007 Obviously there are a lot of people using the M8 and loving it, many of whom had and may still have reservations about various aspects of the camera and or it's reliability. If you still have reservations and have no pressing need to have one now, well then wait. Eventually there will be an M8-II or M9 and for sure it will be better then the M8. Me, I'm happy using my digital M now and will have produced 10's of 1,000's of images by the time the next digital M comes out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philinflash Posted May 25, 2007 Share #7 Posted May 25, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) ... sadly my M6 TTL's sit in the bin gathering dust. ... Woody Spedden So does my Hasselblad... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted May 25, 2007 Share #8 Posted May 25, 2007 I've used Leica M cameras since getting my first M3 in 1972. (I currently use an M7 with a variety of lenses, although the 35 -lux is my desert island lens.) What I love about them is that they have become simply a part of the way I see when I am shooting photos. I never think about the camera, it's almost as if it's an extension of my eyes. I anticipated the arrival of the M8 with a great deal of excitement. I even reserved one before they were released. But then I canceled my reservation after hearing about the initial teething problems. Many of those problems have since been fixed, but not all of them, not enough of them. I've been trying to decide whether or not to buy the M8 sometime soon, but am now leaning toward waiting - perhaps the M9. It seems to me that all the concern about having to use this filter or that filter, changing the menu settings to this or that to accommodate, lens coding, banding, lines, cyan vignetting, battery failures, what software profile to use, etc. are the antithesis of what I have loved about using my Leicas all these years. I love my Leica not because of the technology, but because I don't have to give any thought to the technology. If there is someone out there happily using an M8 who had the same misgivings, could you please tell me how they were overcome. A digital Leica would be a dream come true, but only if it retained the things I have always loved about Leicas. I'm like you. The M Leicas one put film in and took pictures. The pictures almost always looked great. Film of course is also very forgiving. I do own an M8 but I'm not entirely sold on it. It's a beautiful piece of machinery, but it's been a pain in the a@@ to say the least. A bit of a rich man's folly vs a totally reliable tool. And it may just be a matter of what one is used to. The M7 really couldn't get much better imo, and in many ways the M8 is a step back in manufacturing quality and some poor decisions on Leicas's part. It's a step forward only in that it's digital, and more and more that is the neccessity of modern photography. So, if you don't need digital capability with the M system I say invest elsewhere. Otherwise it's a good bet and I really doubt an M9 is anywhere around the corner. The files are quite good and really do blow the competition away. It's just getting there that's been a pain. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddp Posted May 25, 2007 Share #9 Posted May 25, 2007 Keep in mind that internet forums magnify problems as well. Leica has sold quite a few M8's and I am willing to bet there are alot of happy users out there outside the narrow scope of what you see on here. I'd recommend handling one and shooting with it. Any camera can fail - my R8 did, first MP had problems and I've had numerous Nikon DSLR failures in the field. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
estone888 Posted May 25, 2007 Author Share #10 Posted May 25, 2007 Charles, thanks. I think if I didn't already own five Leitz lenses and two CV lenses for the Leica, and I never cease to be amazed by the quality of the glass, I might simply consider switching to Nikon for digital. (I've played around with a friend's D200 and while I'm not crazy in love with it - I'm not much of a lover of zoom lenses - it's not bad.) I like your work on your website, by the way. The Official Eric Stone Website Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tummydoc Posted May 25, 2007 Share #11 Posted May 25, 2007 It seems to me that all the concern about having to use this filter or that filter, changing the menu settings to this or that to accommodate, lens coding, banding, lines, cyan vignetting, battery failures, what software profile to use, etc. are the antithesis of what I have loved about using my Leicas all these years. I love my Leica not because of the technology, but because I don't have to give any thought to the technology. If there is someone out there happily using an M8 who had the same misgivings, could you please tell me how they were overcome. A digital Leica would be a dream come true, but only if it retained the things I have always loved about Leicas. People who wanted full control always had a ton of things to contend with after-the-fact in the old darkroom, and the same holds true with any digital except that it's done on the computer. Maybe you had a good lab that returned you exactly what you wanted from film, and if you could find one that would do it from your SD card you could cross a number of things off your to-do list with the M8 (or any digital camera for that matter). It's true though that with many digitals you can get away with less hands-on postprocessing than the M8. Part of the reason is better AWB in those others, but also a part is that there are many 3rd-party plugins for Canon and Nikon digitals if you want to accept someone else's defaults or maybe make a little tweak and that's all. The M8 not so much. The IR filters: are something users of expensive medium-format digital backs have dealt with before. If Leica had said up-front that the M8's IR sensitivity is a deliberate attempt to aspire to medium-format-back image quality, I believe a lot of people would've been awestruck, in a good way. IMHO the whole issue is the case of a just design being cast in an unfortunate light by a poor marketing decision. The upshot of that is 2 free filters, so I'm not complaining The Coding: is completely optional. On lenses over 35mm the only reason to do it is if you want lens data in EXIF. On lenses under 35mm the only reason to do it is if you want the camera to automatically apply a default correction for the cyan corners. I've mentioned before that I've seen where the correction varies from too little to too much, using the same coded lens, dependent on the light at hand, and the aperture used. It's an average value, and like all such, is a sort of compromise. If you correct the cyan yourself with Panotools you won't need to code lenses for that purpose. However it does simplify that if you have lens information in EXIF. Still optional though. The Sudden-Death: has not been officially explained, and is being handled on a case-by-case basis. We don't know how many unsold M8s are going to be affected. We don't even know if the ones being fixed by Leica are getting better, redesigned components or just being repaired with the same specification of parts and may die again in time. In fact, those who are getting a replacement camera from their local stocking dealer may be getting one that will fail in time as well. A detailed statement from Leica, either on their website or through one of their resident beta-testers would be nice. The Cracking Casting: is a new issue which so far is limited in scope. So was the Sudden Death at first. Will an M8.2 or M9 be rid of all the issues of the M8, who knows? But it's a poor bet. Will they have issues of their own, who knows? But it's a good bet. Bottom-line is if you want a digital Leica M right now, you buy an M8 and pray. My first 2 died in succession, my 3rd has been working well about 3 months. I will not be putting it on a tripod though Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted May 25, 2007 Share #12 Posted May 25, 2007 I own a Nikon D200, have for over a year and tons of Prime and Prime Zoom Nikkor glass. Bought a M8 in January when I could find one. Have used the Nikon maybe 7 times since then and only when I didn't want to expose the Leica to certain environments. Had to send my M8 off to NJ yesterday for what hopefully will be a replacement M8 (Problems detailed in other threads on this board. But in all honesty I have not had any real problems with my M8.) This morning when leaving the house I grabbed the Nikon bag. Quickly put it down and threw the M3 and a couple of rolls of film in the Leica bag. I'm already missing the M8. Until you try one you will not know what you are missing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wparsonsgisnet Posted May 25, 2007 Share #13 Posted May 25, 2007 I echo Woody's comment. My M4 and M6-classic are sitting idle (also the DR, nuts!). I got a call from my older son asking "Hey, dad, how many Leica's you got?" So I sent the M6 and the DR to C--------a, and now there's another Leica-phile on the loose. He visited recently and I "loaned" the 90 'cron. He takes great pix. Now, as the the M8, I don't know how I ever lived without it! My 80-year-old house has more problems...and the technology was definitely proven. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted May 25, 2007 Share #14 Posted May 25, 2007 I'm a bit torn here, because I've read about all the M8 problems of course, but as a pro tool the M8 just keeps on pleasantly surprising me. It's fabulous, and some of my best recent work has been taken with the M8, I think. For example, I just got done two commercial / corporate portrait sessions in the city yesterday, and it's amazing how much more I can get done with the M8. I started shooting a 5d, which I also really like--especially with that Leica 80 R Lux (which, btw folks, is a *steal* these days). Since I love the full-frame look of R glass, it's a good option (the DMR didn't make an appearance yesterday). But once the M8 came out, it stayed out, and one of the clients wanted a more up-to-date, urban look, so we just went out and shot in downtown TO with nothing but the M8, a CV 21, a 35 Lux, a 50 Lux and a reflector (which we didn't need!). Since the lenses fit inside my pockets, it was very cool to have the quality of a little MF back with the freedom the M8 gave me. Outstanding, and a fun change from the wedding stuff I usually do! Ok, so I think I'm at the point where I'd say if you're a dedicated amateur, who doesn't mind the learning curve (and you like rangefinders, of course), then the M8 will actually make you a better digitally-aware photographer. You can shoot JPEG too for a couple of reasons, even if the WB is messed up. First, PS CS 3 will actually open JPEGs in Camera RAW and you can use WB tools (it's not the same as working with RAW data, but for JPEGs it's pretty amazing). If you learn to shoot custom WB in tricky light (daylight setting is just fine in daylight, IMO), then you'll have even better JPEGs. Hope this rambling helps! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
californiajay Posted May 26, 2007 Share #15 Posted May 26, 2007 Having been involved with internet threads on bulletin boards for years and years, I can honestly say that there are very few products in production these days with which if all you ever do is read about them on the internet, appear to be any good at all. What you get on the internet is mostly people with problems looking for answers. What you do not see are the many more who have no problems with their product at all. I just bought my second M8. I have had the first since mid February. I have not yet had one issue with either one of them other than discovering that the firmware prior to the current one did a lousy job of white balancing using tungsten light. So far, no other issues whatsoever. So, I now own 2 M8 bodies, 4 lenses and I also own a Canon 1DS MKII, a 5D and about a dozen Canon L lenses. Since purchasing my first M8, I have used the Canons once. Yes the Leica files really are that good, and it is just SO nice to be able to use cameras that feel like real cameras and not plastic toys. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted May 26, 2007 Share #16 Posted May 26, 2007 Couldn't agree more. I loved my 5D with the 85 1.2 or the 1D Mk2 for fast action, but the only cameras I take out are the M8 these days... I have two. I don't have any problems (though I guess because I spend too much time around LUF I keep on knocking wood...) Don't even think twice. If you need digital source and you have already invested in Leica glass, the body's such a nice thing to work with. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted May 26, 2007 Share #17 Posted May 26, 2007 Eric - I haven't shot 35 mm film seriously for over 25 years and to fund the M8 I am selling a substantial amount of fabulous 6x6, 6x7, and 6x9 gear at derisory prices. The files from my M8 have the job of substituting for that roll-film equipment and initial signs are pretty damn encouraging. This is a camera with some warts, but the more I play with it the less hideous the warts become. The reported technical issues with the earliest cameras' files are mostly insignificant now but the ergonomics of the camera which pay homage to the M legacy feel clumsy and anachronistic to me; if you have 'M' user experience then likely as not you won't have issues with the ergonomics. You will moan about the lamentable shutter release, many of us do. For me the bottom line is that this tiny camera, the same size as my battered and ancient Olympus OM-1 is taking me back to a working freedom I had over 25 years ago but with files that bear no relationship to that former 35 mm experience. You can wait for the fulfilment of promised improvements to come of course, but that can be a little like always waiting for tomorrow. The current reality is that for a rangefinder digital camera the size of a tiny 35 mm camera which produces exemplary files: it is the only show in town. That's some achievement! .................Chris Oh yes: if you do get an M8 problem, you will find that this forum is one of Leica's greatest assets; there are many experienced and extraordinarily helpful and generous people here. Without this forum I would not be as broke as I am and would be the owner of lots more Nikon gear instead of being a first time Leica customer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Mondello Posted May 26, 2007 Share #18 Posted May 26, 2007 I'll point you to a thread I started at the RFF . . . http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39856 The fact is that not a few photographers have been selling their dSLR gear to go with the M8. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tummydoc Posted May 26, 2007 Share #19 Posted May 26, 2007 Joe, just because a fellow sells his 5D/1Ds/D2X kit and states to a public forum that his reason for doing so was that the M8 image quality is "superior", or lighter in weight than the DSLR kit, doesn't preclude the real possibility that his motives were in reality financial. In the "film days" very very few people, at least since the late 1960s, shot the M Leica as their only kit. The same ergonomic and technical limitations that existed then vs an SLR, still exist today in the M8. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted May 26, 2007 Share #20 Posted May 26, 2007 Joe, just because a fellow sells his 5D/1Ds/D2X kit and states to a public forum that his reason for doing so was that the M8 image quality is "superior", or lighter in weight than the DSLR kit, doesn't preclude the real possibility that his motives were in reality financial. In the "film days" very very few people, at least since the late 1960s, shot the M Leica as their only kit. The same ergonomic and technical limitations that existed then vs an SLR, still exist today in the M8. HI There - actually, I rather disagree with this - I think that having instant feedback removes most of the previous limitations of an M Lieca with respect to framing and exposure. Sure, it's no substitute for an SLR for sport or wildlife, but apart from that. Jamie's message where he's been doing corporate PR shots is a good example - you wouldn't choose to do that with a film rangefinder, but it's perfectly possible with a digital one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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