tuck.kenney Posted May 1, 2015 Share #1 Posted May 1, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi everyone! Sorry if someone has asked this question before! I did do some quick search in the forum before posting this question but could not find any relevant informaiton. I currently use an M9. The trend is clear that Leica may not develop any new cameras with CCD sensors. So suppose I stick to the M9 and many year later its sensors breaks down. By then, will Leica have enough inventory to repair broken M9s/M-Es? If so, great! But if not, will Leica be able to fit a CMOS sensor in M9s/M-Es? My guess is no, because changing the sensors requires changing all the circuitry. But if that is the case, will we be forced to upgrade to CMOS sensors and will M9s/M-Es be worthless? Thanks! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 1, 2015 Posted May 1, 2015 Hi tuck.kenney, Take a look here Future of CCD Sensors - Will Leica completely phase them out. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted May 1, 2015 Share #2 Posted May 1, 2015 My Crystal Ball is currently being serviced at the dealership. However, I would not start to worry until there are serious indications that this might be the case in a (considerable?) number of years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenshacker Posted May 1, 2015 Share #3 Posted May 1, 2015 The sensor can still be replaced on the Leica M8, which came out almost 9 years ago. The CCD in my 22 year old Kodak DCS200 still works perfectly, and if it went out: you can still get replacements for it. I can't look ahead, can only look around. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerndReini Posted May 1, 2015 Share #4 Posted May 1, 2015 Will they phase it out of any new future products? I would bet on it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Henry Posted May 1, 2015 Share #5 Posted May 1, 2015 Hi Tuck, the CCD sensor FF (KAF 18500 for M9) is still manufactured by Truesenseimaging The product overview is dated 5/1/2015 http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/product.do?id=KAF-18500 Best Henry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenshacker Posted May 1, 2015 Share #6 Posted May 1, 2015 Truesense Imaging has now been acquired by On Semiconductor. They also acquired the Cypress sensor unit, which was FillFactory. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted May 1, 2015 Share #7 Posted May 1, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) It's already gone and On Semiconductor is not in the mix anymore. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenshacker Posted May 1, 2015 Share #8 Posted May 1, 2015 The KAF-18500 used in the M9 must be selling fast from On Semi. http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/product.do?id=KAF-18500 http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/107EC.PDF Last week they were in stock, and now there is a 13~16week lead time. I guess Leica is buying a lot of them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuck.kenney Posted May 2, 2015 Author Share #9 Posted May 2, 2015 Thanks, guys! Hi Doc Henry, Thanks for the link! I suppose Onsemi is fabricating these sensors in house. That way, as long as Leica has some demand, CCD sensors will not be completely phased out. Unfortunately, I don't see anything that suggests that any company is working on further developing CCD technology~ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Henry Posted May 2, 2015 Share #10 Posted May 2, 2015 Thanks, guys! Hi Doc Henry, Thanks for the link! I suppose Onsemi is fabricating these sensors in house. That way, as long as Leica has some demand, CCD sensors will not be completely phased out. Unfortunately, I don't see anything that suggests that any company is working on further developing CCD technology~ Hi Tuck in my hospital, we need accurate images with good contrast and faithful colors (ex: cut parts of anatomopathology). The majority of our equipment and photo cameras are CCD (ophthalmology, neurosurgery,radiology etc ...) because it is for care of people, so the CCD will always manufactured according to me Our loupes are manufacturing by Leitz Some links for your information : http://www.medicalexpo.com/medical-manufacturer/ccd-camera-head-27407.html http://www.medicalexpo.com/medical-manufacturer/ccd-camera-14495.html Best Henry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenshacker Posted May 2, 2015 Share #11 Posted May 2, 2015 Being the eternal optimist, and noting that On Semi has never listed a 13~16 week lead time for the KAF-18500 or other CCD's... I wonder if the long lead time means that have revised the part with a new cover glass... Hope springs eternal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted May 2, 2015 Share #12 Posted May 2, 2015 Being the eternal optimist, and noting that On Semi has never listed a 13~16 week lead time for the KAF-18500 or other CCD's... I wonder if the long lead time means that have revised the part with a new cover glass... Hope springs eternal. But that would likely require revised firmware for optimal imaging - thus unless ALL sensors are replaced on both M9 and MM cameras, cameras with Mk I sensors might not be offered future firmware upgrades. dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenshacker Posted May 2, 2015 Share #13 Posted May 2, 2015 The only difference is the transmission of the cover glass. Several glass types offered by Schott have the same refractive index as the S8612 now used. There is a glass type "BG-18" with the same sharp cut-off as the S8612, but has ~10% less transmission in the visible. It does not have the same problem with corrosion as the S8612. This can be easily handled by changing the calibration of the light meter when the sensor is exchanged at Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuck.kenney Posted May 3, 2015 Author Share #14 Posted May 3, 2015 Hi Tuck in my hospital, we need accurate images with good contrast and faithful colors (ex: cut parts of anatomopathology). The majority of our equipment and photo cameras are CCD (ophthalmology, neurosurgery,radiology etc ...) because it is for care of people, so the CCD will always manufactured according to me Our loupes are manufacturing by Leitz Some links for your information : http://www.medicalexpo.com/medical-manufacturer/ccd-camera-head-27407.html http://www.medicalexpo.com/medical-manufacturer/ccd-camera-14495.html Best Henry Hi Henry, Good to know that! I didn't know CCD sensors are used for medical purposes too. Thanks for your help again! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted May 3, 2015 Share #15 Posted May 3, 2015 First, Leica has to stop selling M9M/ME cameras. Once that is accomplished and after many more years then they can contemplate stopping CCD purchases for M cameras. However, IMHO, unless another CCD sensor can soon be used in these cameras, the bean counters will argue to management that just replacing every M9/ME/M9M with a new camera migjht be more expedient in the financial long run now that an MM successor will soon be available. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jevidon Posted May 5, 2015 Share #16 Posted May 5, 2015 Since we are all guessing, I'll throw my hat into the ring. According to Reid Reviews which tested the new CMOS Monochrom M246 against the old CCD M9 Monochrom, The differences I saw were miniscule and were mostly in the response to color. To my eyes the CMOS appeared a little more contrasty, but that was, again, the reponse to different colors. That being said, I would guess that the Leica CCD's will phase out since the CMOS runs cooler and therefore is a little less noisy, and that CCD's will phase out in general throughout the industry over time. The new CMOS Monochrom is the logical next step in development having live view and a clip on EVF to use R legacy lenses as well as the M legacy lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 5, 2015 Share #17 Posted May 5, 2015 Hi Henry, Good to know that! I didn't know CCD sensors are used for medical purposes too. Thanks for your help again! It is not so simple. X-Ray sensors are CMOS nowadays. for instance: http://www.hamamatsu.com/jp/en/4011.html I noticed the leap in contrast and sharpness when I replaced my Orthopantomograph a couple of years ago. It was the switch from CCD to CMOS the technical type explained. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffrey James Posted May 5, 2015 Share #18 Posted May 5, 2015 I noticed that the CCD sensor comes in two grades -- standard and engineering. What on earth does that mean>? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Henry Posted May 5, 2015 Share #19 Posted May 5, 2015 Jaap, I am part of a purchasing committee of medical devices and medical devices CCD are generally more expensive.However there is also the CMOS device market but we avoid buying them because the images have a poorer rendering.Leica has chosen the CMOS because it is cheaper (than CCD) for the sensor and also make video that consumes less electricity and less heat sensor... but a sensor does not like when too hot ! Best Henry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted May 5, 2015 Share #20 Posted May 5, 2015 Even medical device manufacturers are moving to CMOS. Keep your eyes on the target. It is moving. No vendor deeply committed to their original CCD devices would say they are currently out of date. It is about marketing and nothing else. CMOS offers tremendous software/firmware potential that CCD cannot. Astronomers have fairly narrow requisites and they can stick to CCD. Improving CCD beyond today's technology will be quite a challenging, but astronomers' needs are narrow, already maxed-out. Medics have a different paradigm. I have periodical endoscopic exams (pre-cancerous condition) and I asked the doctor whether they can make video and he said, "No, and we have no need." He will have no need until the technology arises. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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