The next M3

[hankg]

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The M3 was a real quantum leap in camera design. It's finder system still sets the bar for all RF cameras today. While the M8 may be considered a landmark because it saved Leica's bacon, as a camera it broke no new ground. It married the viewing sytem and ergonomics introduced by the M3 to a digital system on a par with already existing DSLR's. No small engineering feat but nothing new in either it's optical or digital components.

 

For me the key differentiator between the M and all other digital cameras is it's RF finder. With all the exotic glass and advances in Leica lens design and the incorporation of digital into the M it should be possible for another quantum leap. A more brilliant, higher contrast finder with adjustable magnification like a tri-elmar. Wide (.48), normal (.68) and 1:1 (1.0) and a digital system to handle frames/displays that adjusts frame size and parralex not for one fixed position but continuously as you focus.

 

Now that would be one hell of an improvement to a system which while excellent has not seen any improvement in half a century and it would guarantee that any future DRF competitor would still be far beneath the bar that Leica sets.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I would like to see the RF finder have electronic framelines that move as you focus for paralax and also project into the finder the exact cropping of the lens, of course this means lenses would have to be coded to read that EXIF data on which lens is in use but to me this is really the key improvement on a RF system and can really make the M system so much better than it is today. i would like the framelines to be on the money myself and leica like I have said many times needs to forget the film days in many ways and the traditional M system and expand it to features like this

[hankg]

I would like to see the RF finder have electronic framelines that move as you focus for paralax and also project into the finder the exact cropping of the lens, of course this means lenses would have to be coded to read that EXIF data on which lens is in use but to me this is really the key improvement on a RF system and can really make the M system so much better than it is today. i would like the framelines to be on the money myself and leica like I have said many times needs to forget the film days in many ways and the traditional M system and expand it to features like this

 

That is the system I was trying to describe. They actually made a prototype that did this mechanically at what point ( http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/23946-leica-advanced-rf-prototype.html#post250608 ). I think adding selectable magnification factor with electronic frames working as you just described would remove any drawback of RF finders for the 21-135 focal length ranges. That would be rangefinder heaven. Not only does parralax change with focus but cropping changes as well so this would be a huge boost in accuracy. I would think one major advance every 50 years in Leica's finder system would'nt be to quick a pace of innovation. Maybe after the R10 is out the door.

[wattsy]

and leica like I have said many times needs to forget the film days in many ways and the traditional M system and expand it to features like this

 

Leica should meddle with the RF at their peril. You don't chuck 50 years of proven technology down the drain to create this month's latest electronic wonder-toy.

[wattsy]

I would like to see the RF finder have electronic framelines that move as you focus for paralax and also project into the finder the exact cropping of the lens, of course this means lenses would have to be coded to read that EXIF data on which lens is in use but to me this is really the key improvement on a RF system and can really make the M system so much better than it is today.

 

Sounds like you simply need a smaller sized DSLR.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Hank I agree this would put the M system on the map . Just imagine DSLR framing in this package. i would buy 3 of them and they would sell like no one's business. All the headaches would be gone stick a lens on there and just frame it and shoot and you know EXACTLY what you got. This is HUGE feature and i really wish leica would start the M9 and if this was the only extra feature i would be standing in the front line. This is my biggest drawback to the system the framelines today are so 100 years ago. LOL

[Guest guy_mancuso]

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Sounds like you simply need a smaller sized DSLR.

 

Your forgetting the mirror box, so no not even close this would be the exact size of what the M8 is today just electronic framelines and it really is not hard to do , just a internal projection from the circuit board to the finder , just like the shutter speed today in the m8. Just leave the focusing patch in the middle, hell they could almost do this now with firmware.

[hankg]

Sounds like you simply need a smaller sized DSLR.

 

Its nothing like a DSLR. It's like being able to switch between the magnification of the M3 finder (1.0), the current M8 finder and the lower mag finder for wide angles. The crop frames would appear the same way as now the only difference would be they would be accurate.

 

If Leica hadn't messed with 50 year old proven technology there would not have been an M3 and Leica would have went bankrupt in the 50's. I am sure at the time there where some pissed off LTM owners but they seem to have gotten over it.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Leica should meddle with the RF at their peril. You don't chuck 50 years of proven technology down the drain to create this month's latest electronic wonder-toy.

 

 

Ian were is the toy in this, 50 years is great but are the framelines accurate today or for the last 50 years , not a chance. Why not have acurate frame lines. Also if you don't advance in technology than you get buried alive just ask leica about that one, they have been there more often than any stockholder wants to talk about. This is a business to create value for there customers and stockholders, sorry but i don't want to drive a Model T any more. The tradition is still there just a change in the technology behind it

[wattsy]

Its nothing like a DSLR. It's like being able to switch between the magnification of the M3 finder (1.0), the current M8 finder and the lower mag finder for wide angles. The crop frames would appear the same way as now the only difference would be they would be accurate.

 

I was responding to Guy's desire to have perfect framing for every Leica lens.

[Guest sirvine]

What would be really cool would be a proper real time data interface to the USB port on the camera. Then someone could come up with a mega-finder that includes all these features by just reading telemetrics transmitted by the camera. Next thing you know we'll be asking for eye-control for the focus patch and facial recognition...

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I was responding to Guy's desire to have perfect framing for every Leica lens.

 

 

Ian if it is at least 98 percent correct than it would be much better than today. don't have to be dead on but much closer than it is . Also the frames would illuminate like the shutter so you can see them better also. If they only added this and a couple of other features we asked for like ISO/EV, 16 bit than it could almost be perfect. I bet if we sent leica on a mission today to add this to the firmware right now it could be done, the issue is to disable the framlines coming up and that would be a hardware change to disable it , which i would be happy to send mine in for. But the lens coding would send the info to the circuit board for the correct framelines to bring up so no changes to any lens.

[hankg]

I was responding to Guy's desire to have perfect framing for every Leica lens.

 

Electronically controlled frames could give perfect framing for every lens. What Guy was proposing is the same thing as I am describing. Framlines that look pretty much like what we have now but that are accurate. Lenses are not exactly the focal length marked and they change focal length as you focus.

 

Also with all the advances in glass and optics going into Leica lenses couldn't they improvre the light gathering ability of the finder and increase the contrast of the RF spot? The experience of using the RF would not change it would just be easier to focus and crop accurately.

 

Right now I'm happy they managed to stuff a digital sensor into an M and make it work. But looking down the road Leica should also be an innovator which is what brought about the M and all that great glass in the first place.

[hankg]

Some added benfits:

 

No multiple framelines only lines for the lens mounted

Framelines can be added/improved in firmware

Brighter thinner lines that won't have one edge disappear if your eye is not positioned just right.

 

I don't think this can be done with the present kit. You need to track focus and have a set up capable of projecting more then just the few digits that it does now but it's an idea for some future model.

[HaraldL]

Ok electronic framelines will add a lot of desirable options. Also imagine selecting horizontal, vertical, maybe even square format framelines. A matched sensor would offer optimal use of the lenses image circle.

[lct]

We were dreaming about things like that before the M8 was launched.

There are obviously too many framelines in latest Leica viewfinders.

Also a 1:1 viewfinder would be great but i wonder if the VF's window would be large enough for this purpose.

Not quite sure if Leica can do like Epson from this standpoint as the VF must remain compatible with goggled lenses like 90/4 or 135/2.8.

Any idea?

[hankg]

We were dreaming about things like that before the M8 was launched.

There are obviously too many framelines in latest Leica viewfinders.

Also a 1:1 viewfinder would be great but i wonder if the VF's window would be large enough for this purpose.

Not quite sure if Leica can do like Epson from this standpoint as the VF must remain compatible with goggled lenses like 90/4 or 135/2.8.

Any idea?

 

It could remain compatible. Of course if you selected 1.0 mag you would not be able to see the framelines below 50mm just like with a 1.0 M3. Whether they could fit the optics and electronics into the existing space and hold the line on costs I have no idea.

[george +]

Remember, remember, the 5. . . . . I mean the M5. A camera I have had for the last 36 years and still think it to be superior. But for some reason it did not sell well. A pity.

 

As to your suggestions, I am all for it. Fifty plus years is a good time for an upgrade. Just keep the shape, people seem to be sensitive about that.

 

But while we are at it; THINK! What about removing all obsolete elements like they did with the thread mount in the fifties - but still keep compatibility?

 

Face it folks, the basic rangefinder design is obsolete in today's terms and accurate laser rangefinders are here. The old Wild/Leitz part of the three Leica companies make them and Leica Camera uses them in their Sport Optics too. Couple them to the cam on the lenses and show how focus is movining with a moving dot or so.

 

Having done these two things plus a bit of speed up and tuning and we have a new M paradigm.

 

And I keep dreaming of two lugs on the left side too, but . . .

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I agree George keep the wonderful overall M design just put a little 21st century stuff in the guts

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[lct]

The M3 has a .91x VF not 1:1 actually but anyway changing magnification is not an electronic problem i guess, just an optical one, so the question is to know if magnifiers can be used inside the RF optics instead of outside as we do now.

I seem to recall that we discussed this matter last year, perhaps with Mark Norton and/or Andy Piper and that the latter said it was not possible, i don't remember why though...