scott kirkpatrick Posted May 15, 2007 Share #1 Posted May 15, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) The "laundry list for after 1.102 has been sent to Solms and both Guy M and I have taken a shot at clarifying the items where they wanted to understand exactly what we had in mind. One of our first items was "faster wake-up time." I recall from the last laundry list, we asked about the details of wake up and got the following answer: Questions from LEICA M8 users collected by Guy Mancuso. Answers from the Leica Camera AG team. 1. Let the camera go to sleep, take a picture to wake it from sleep mode, the title bar over the review image still says 0/0. The wake up time of the Leica M8 is about 1 second. The time to mount the SD-Card is approx 3-4 seconds. If the shutter is fired before the SD-Card is mounted completely, there is no information about the SD-Card. In this case the Auto-Review shows 0/0, but if the play mode is activated, the camera shows the correct picture numbering. My impression of 1.102 is that wake-up appears to have gotten slower, where I define this as the time from switching power on to everything looking ready to go, no lights flashing, the top lcd showing battery and frame count remaining... I don't think we should need to wait for the SD card to be reviewed and sized before taking a picture. After all the DNG won't be written out for several seconds. And while I suspect that the camera wake up time was lengthened to include this step, I don't know for sure what is being done and just when the camera is ready to shoot. Would anyone object if * The appearance of the battery status indicator signaled ready to shoot, and * the number of frames remaining were displayed only when that information was accurate, and remained blank until it could be displayed. I'd like to avoid flapping from one side to the other on successive laundry lists, and here we seem to be giving conflicting advice. scott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 15, 2007 Posted May 15, 2007 Hi scott kirkpatrick, Take a look here Laundry lists and wake-up time. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
marknorton Posted May 15, 2007 Share #2 Posted May 15, 2007 There's little difference between "off" state and "asleep" state other than how they are woken up - moving the mode switch from "off" in the first case and pressing the shutter release in the second. I expect each of these causes a wake-up interrupt and the camera only accepts the shutter release wake-up call if the camera mode switch is on. While the camera is asleep, it is not aware of any changes made to, for example, the card, the battery, the baseplate or the lens so it has to evaluate all of these when woken up. The presence of the card and baseplate are easy, the lens requires the frame selector and lens sensor to be evaluated but the time consuming ones are the battery state - which requires the battery voltage to stabilise after the camera powers up and the card contents which requires the card file system to be evaluated. I expect, for example, that there is greater latitude in acceptable battery voltage during start up but that once things are up and running, the minimum acceptable battery voltage is more precisely regulated. There may also be issues with other elements of the camera. How ready, for example, is the light meter circuitry to give accurate readings immediately on power up, especially in dark situations? Given the raw buffer in the camera, it would certainly be possible to allow pictures to be taken but if, for example, there was not enough power left in the battery or capacity in the SD card to save the image or the card was unformatted, the image would be lost and there would be complaints from users. I support Leica's current implementation because it ensures the camera is fully up and running before pictures can be taken. I do wonder though whether there's a half-way house between being fully awake and in a deep sleep which would allow the camera to wake up very quickly, a sort of "drowsy" state, if you will. Trouble is, however clever you try to be, "the base plate hasn't been removed while I've been asleep so that card cannot have been changed", nothing beats explicitly evaluating the camera on wake up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted May 15, 2007 Share #3 Posted May 15, 2007 One more point though is that they should not display 0/0 when they do not know the card contents but leave it blank until they do. "Better to keep quiet and be thought ignorant than open your mouth and remove all doubt", as my grandmother used to say. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ariston Posted May 15, 2007 Share #4 Posted May 15, 2007 I would have no problem with this. In fact the displays would not be an issue for me for the times when I need a quick wakeup. I want to be able to put the camera to my eye, press the shutter and not have to wait 2 seconds (or however long it is) for it to trigger, by which time I have usually missed the shot. My ten cents. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
okram Posted May 15, 2007 Share #5 Posted May 15, 2007 Lost some nice shots because of slow wake up time. I suppose one needs to learn to press the shutter before starting to focus (if focusing at all) or composing, but it does not work in most cases. In my opinion this is the only real flaw of the M8, and I AM HOPING for a possible firmware fix... Marko Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott kirkpatrick Posted May 15, 2007 Author Share #6 Posted May 15, 2007 One more point though is that they should not display 0/0 when they do not know the card contents but leave it blank until they do. That's the form in which the suggestion was passed along this time. scott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
argomazov Posted May 15, 2007 Share #7 Posted May 15, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Would anyone object if * The appearance of the battery status indicator signaled ready to shoot, and * the number of frames remaining were displayed only when that information was accurate, and remained blank until it could be displayed. I'd like to avoid flapping from one side to the other on successive laundry lists, and here we seem to be giving conflicting advice. scott Hi Scott. Not only I would not object, but I would support the request for this kind of behavior. To address Mark's concerns, this might be a user-selectable option as well, for people that want to stick with the current behavior. Thanks, Luca Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 15, 2007 Share #8 Posted May 15, 2007 Lost some nice shots because of slow wake up time.I suppose one needs to learn to press the shutter before starting to focus (if focusing at all) or composing, but it does not work in most cases. In my opinion this is the only real flaw of the M8, and I AM HOPING for a possible firmware fix... Marko Aren't we forgetting the first version of the firmware? The faster startup time when in the sleep mode resulted in the highly interesting "beam-me-up-Scotty" banding, which was cured by slowing startup down. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ariston Posted May 15, 2007 Share #9 Posted May 15, 2007 I would hope that Leica could pursue another possible solution to the banding problem other than a slower startup, as it is not a very acceptable solution for many users. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted May 15, 2007 Share #10 Posted May 15, 2007 The banding was the hardware issue Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 15, 2007 Share #11 Posted May 15, 2007 I would hope that Leica could pursue another possible solution to the banding problem other than a slower startup, as it is not a very acceptable solution for many users. I was not talking about the "normal" banding, but about the rainbow effect on -wakeup and shoot- before the camera was ready. If that was also a hardware issue, Guy, I stand corrected, but I seem to recall thet wakeup time was slightly longer on 1.09 because of this issue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted May 15, 2007 Share #12 Posted May 15, 2007 No the rainbow was firmware. Getting confusing is it not. LOL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
okram Posted May 15, 2007 Share #13 Posted May 15, 2007 I also thought they prolonged the wakeup time to allow the sensor to "heat up". And thought that there should be another way to avoid the "cold" rainbowed CCD. Mr. Mancuso, are you shure about that being a hardware issue? That makes me more hopeful about shortening that wakeup time (it really bothers me- this is a true contra " Leica M way " problem). Do you think that something could be done? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted May 15, 2007 Share #14 Posted May 15, 2007 What blobs, and horizontal streaks under lighting was hardware related , the Vertical banding WAS firmware and also the rainbow effect. i got confused sorry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xrogers Posted May 16, 2007 Share #15 Posted May 16, 2007 I checked, and my 1.102 camera shoots one second after turning on or waking up. The visual indications may have changed, but the actual wakeup time seems the same. So long as the time to first shot and viewfinder display doesn't lengthen, I don't much care about the frame counter, red light or auto review numbering. Wakeup hasn't been a problem for me, likely because of habits formed during the past with early Canon digitals and their 2-3 second wakeup times. These days, when I pull the camera out of the bag, I turn it on immediately as part of the motion. Anytime I grab the camera, I immediately tap the shutter button as part of that motion, and the camera is always ready to shoot when I look through the viewfinder. This requires no brain power any more, I just do it automatically. I haven't missed a shot to wakeup yet, and don't expect to. I fully expect I'll be doing this incessant OCD periodic shutter button tap for the rest of my life, even for future cameras where it doesn't matter a bit! Until later, Clyde Rogers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
punktum Posted May 18, 2007 Share #16 Posted May 18, 2007 Just to bring this back on top. What I like to see improved. - A little bit more speed in everything. Wakeup time, shooting, processing, etc... - The choice of meter settings, spot, matrix, integral. - an option between compressed and uncompressed DNG. - auto white balance that works and for the however late future. - full frame around 16mil sensor for 50MB data. - a 2500 Iso noise like 640 Iso now. I assume an IR issue will never ever be discussed with a Leica professional camera again. It has really hit them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted May 18, 2007 Share #17 Posted May 18, 2007 Just to bring this back on top. What I like to see improved. I assume an IR issue will never ever be discussed with a Leica professional camera again. It has really hit them. I don't think that is correct. The IR problem is a NON problem for those that have the IR cut filters. As to those that have not bought the camera because of it, "they" probably wouldn't of bought one anyway. "They" would of found some other flaw with the design of some part of it and not bought one. It's NOT full frame! It only produces 8bit images, not 16bit! No manual shutter cock, like film M's! The list goes on for those that really don't want a digital M. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnastovall Posted May 18, 2007 Share #18 Posted May 18, 2007 I don't think that is correct. The IR problem is a NON problem for those that have the IR cut filters. As to those that have not bought the camera because of it, "they" probably wouldn't of bought one anyway. "They" would of found some other flaw with the design of some part of it and not bought one. It's NOT full frame! It only produces 8bit images, not 16bit! No manual shutter cock, like film M's! The list goes on for those that really don't want a digital M. You are so Wrong. I would buy an M8 tomorrow if it were not for the IR problems. The Filters are not a fix but a Kludge. The we learn we have to use coded lenses and I was at the Dallas M8 class and the presenter show examples of uncorrectable flare produced by the filters which wasn't there without the filter. Another M8 owner who had worked with out the filters found greens were just not right without them. No, I'll buy an M8 tomorrow but I don't want the currently ill designed camera that it is now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
punktum Posted May 18, 2007 Share #19 Posted May 18, 2007 I don't think that is correct. The IR problem is a NON problem for those that have the IR cut filters. As to those that have not bought the camera because of it, "they" probably wouldn't of bought one anyway. "They" would of found some other flaw with the design of some part of it and not bought one. I agree, with the filters it´s not a big thing anymore. But it was trouble for Leica, it took time and resources to fix it. All I wanted to say is that the next generation of sensor which is build in wathever M or R camera model is not going to have the same problem. Why should they make faults twice? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted May 18, 2007 Share #20 Posted May 18, 2007 You are so Wrong. I would buy an M8 tomorrow if it were not for the IR problems. The Filters are not a fix but a Kludge. The we learn we have to use coded lenses and I was at the Dallas M8 class and the presenter show examples of uncorrectable flare produced by the filters which wasn't there without the filter. Another M8 owner who had worked with out the filters found greens were just not right without them. No, I'll buy an M8 tomorrow but I don't want the currently ill designed camera that it is now. Right John you really don't want a M8, otherwise you would have one. I think I said that already, didn't I. Just how can all the members of this forum, and many other forums, make such wonderful images with the greatly flawed Leica M digital camera. Even those that have never owned a Leica, or other make, rangefinder camera before. Simple fact is you would find falt with something and then post in every thread in every forum site about how it is so flawed and I'd buy one if wasn't for major flaw X. Have a nice day. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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