wolfloid Posted February 19, 2015 Share #1 Posted February 19, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) I know it is an anathema to many who love Leica, but I think that to attract new users Leica has to invest in some very specific new technology. Leicas are very, very expensive for fairly low tech camera bodies, so let's see some more value for our money. Improvements in the M over the M9 have been worthwhile and that is the direction that Leica needs to explore more professionally. The quieter shutter, better battery life, fewer bugs and failures with memory cards, faster chip, better rear screen and even an improved rangefinder are all laudable and very welcome, but there needs to be more to keep the camera relevant as time goes on. So what would I like to see? First off, keep the form factor the same - same basic size and shape, with the excellent rangefinder. Sensor development - lower noise levels, greater DR, better colour, WB etc. will happen inevitably anyway, so little need to worry there. That out of the way, I think they need to improve the EVF side of things so that it functions well in itself but also as a useful adjunct to the optical rangefinder (to accurately check and adjust rangefinder calibration, which should be simply user adjustable). The way to go seems to be in the Fuji direction of a hybrid viewfinder, so that at the flick of an external switch there is an immediate switch from optical to electronic viewfinder and back, without the need for a cumbersome add on. Obviously the built in EVF would have to be cutting edge, and not some cheap economy version as have been offered so far. So the pixel count and refreshment rates of the EVF would have to be superb, and the lag and blackout would have to be non-existent, before it could even be considered. That being said, the ergonomic integration would also have to be flawless, so that only the information that is desired in the EVF or as overlays in the OVF can be fully (meaning no limits) customised by the user. There also needs to be a one-external-button-press available for magnification of the EVF. The other additions I would like to see are a flip up EVF and alternative framing ratios - 4x3, 6x7 and square. Better and more sophisticated coding for all focal lengths to allow more sophisticated and accurate EXIF information, including for the frequently used 40mm and for lenses over 135mm. Obviously, all this would have to set new standards of bug free, robust reliability. Any thoughts? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 Hi wolfloid, Take a look here New direction for Leica rangefinder. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted February 19, 2015 Share #2 Posted February 19, 2015 Well, the EVF we have now was state of the art at the finalization of the design process of the M240, so we can reasonably hope for a more advanced implementation of the system in the next iteration. Whether that will be in the form of some hybrid system remains to be seen, as the integration with the beloved OVF/RF appears to be rather problematic and viewfinder clutter is an anathema at Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tookaphotoof Posted February 19, 2015 Share #3 Posted February 19, 2015 My younger brother recently bought a Fuji XT1. Evf has come a long way compared with the XE1, which I found to be completely useless. Still prefer the rangefinders in my Leica's or the optical viewfinders in the slr. Considering how often I use my Leica cameras compared to the other ones, even at this price point the 'value for my money' isn't that bad. A Volkswagen Golf GTI would be a sporty hatchback. You get a lot for not too much money. But if you can afford to buy and use a Ferrari Shooting Brake as a family car, why not? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted February 19, 2015 Share #4 Posted February 19, 2015 Any thoughts? Yes, we've been here before. This has been discussed ad naseum, and the response is always the same. There are those (including myself) who want the M to remain an RF camera with no cluttering add-ons. Then there are those who are apparently happy to have a dog's dinner of a mess with add-ons and bolt-ons here there and everywhere - another do everything camera with some sort of M resemblance (please, NO!). And then there are those who would be happy with a camera incorporating everything except the rangefinder - but there's already the T so why develop yet another product? But at the end of the day, Leica will no doubt be determining what they think will sell in sufficient numbers to be profitable in their product line-up and their decision will be final, whatever it turns out to be. History tells us that the M as a rangefinder is a very enduring design and product and ignoring history (we always know better don't we?) will be at our and Leica's peril. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted February 19, 2015 Share #5 Posted February 19, 2015 Any thoughts? Over 800 and counting here. Not to mention many other discussions, available using the search box, that exhaust this issue and debate. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfloid Posted February 19, 2015 Author Share #6 Posted February 19, 2015 There are those (including myself) who want the M to remain an RF camera with no cluttering add-ons. Then there are those who are apparently happy to have a dog's dinner of a mess with add-ons and bolt-ons here there and everywhere - another do everything camera with some sort of M resemblance (please, NO!). But this is perfectly possible now. You can buy a film camera or an ME or the M. You have what you say you want. If you don't want 'the dog's dinner of a mess', stick to film. What I don't see in the other discussions is a focus on the points I've made, particularly on the hybrid EVF. If any of you have used the Fuji, you will know that you do not have to use the EVF - indeed, if you didn't switch it on, you would never even know it was there, really, it would have no influence on your use of the camera as a 'pure' RF camera. That is the beauty of it. So where is the harm? For those that do want to use it, even occasionally, it can be a great benefit - accurate and easy focusing of the 90/135 mm and longer lenses, and totally reliable and effortless framing with 24/21mm and wider lenses. No more kludging with awkward slide-on viewfinders sticking out with no information in them. If this were implemented effectively, as I mentioned, earlier, there could be a relatively seamless and unobtrusive synergy between the OVF and the EVF, using the best of both worlds, with hardly a thought about anything threatening the old Leica world and the obvious portents of doom. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfloid Posted February 19, 2015 Author Share #7 Posted February 19, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Well, the EVF we have now was state of the art at the finalization of the design process of the M240. Except that they did not even allow the possibility of updating to the new stste-of-the-art that came out a couple of months later. These things were in a very fast flux of development at the time, as Leica knew, yet they decided for immediate built in obsolescence. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manoleica Posted February 19, 2015 Share #8 Posted February 19, 2015 Leica's = 4B's Blood! Expensive Blood! Exquisite Blood! Excellent Images! Blood! Cool ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted February 19, 2015 Share #9 Posted February 19, 2015 What I don't see in the other discussions is a focus on the points I've made..... I suggest that you use the search function and spend an hour or so reading. I think that you will find that just about everything that can be covered, really has been. The problem with such discussions is that they all finally prove fruitless, with few views changed and nothing to show for them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 19, 2015 Share #10 Posted February 19, 2015 Except that they did not even allow the possibility of updating to the new stste-of-the-art that came out a couple of months later. These things were in a very fast flux of development at the time, as Leica knew, yet they decided for immediate built in obsolescence. Incorrect The new EVF came to the market as a surprise and their hardware turned out to be unsuitable. Tough luck. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpsawin Posted February 19, 2015 Share #11 Posted February 19, 2015 Wolfoid, If you want a Fuji why not go buy one? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted February 19, 2015 Share #12 Posted February 19, 2015 The way to go seems to be in the Fuji direction of a hybrid viewfinder' date=' so that at the flick of an external switch there is an immediate switch from optical to electronic viewfinder and back, without the need for a cumbersome add on. Obviously, all this would have to set new standards of bug free, robust reliability. Any thoughts?[/quote'] Thougts? - Yes - forget it Of course they could make a new camera with a new range of lenses, but the point about the hybrid viewfinder in the (excellent) Fuji cameras is the electronic connection between the camera and the lens . . . and M lenses have no electronic connection, so the camera does not know what distance has been focused on (and therefore the parallax and field of view corrections). Or what aperture has been selected. There isn't any way of making bug free robust reliability in such a hybrid viewfinder without electonic lenses. Simple as that. Ovelays become inaccurate, focus confirmation a guess etc. etc. If you're asking for a better plug in EVF, then I'm right with you - faster refresh, more resolution, eye sensor, absolutely! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dant Posted February 20, 2015 Share #13 Posted February 20, 2015 I know it is an anathema to many who love Leica, but I think that to attract new users Leica has to invest in some very specific new technology. Leicas are very, very expensive for fairly low tech camera bodies, so let's see some more value for our money. Improvements in the M over the M9 have been worthwhile and that is the direction that Leica needs to explore more professionally. The quieter shutter, better battery life, fewer bugs and failures with memory cards, faster chip, better rear screen and even an improved rangefinder are all laudable and very welcome, but there needs to be more to keep the camera relevant as time goes on. So what would I like to see? First off, keep the form factor the same - same basic size and shape, with the excellent rangefinder. Sensor development - lower noise levels, greater DR, better colour, WB etc. will happen inevitably anyway, so little need to worry there. That out of the way, I think they need to improve the EVF side of things so that it functions well in itself but also as a useful adjunct to the optical rangefinder (to accurately check and adjust rangefinder calibration, which should be simply user adjustable). The way to go seems to be in the Fuji direction of a hybrid viewfinder, so that at the flick of an external switch there is an immediate switch from optical to electronic viewfinder and back, without the need for a cumbersome add on. Obviously the built in EVF would have to be cutting edge, and not some cheap economy version as have been offered so far. So the pixel count and refreshment rates of the EVF would have to be superb, and the lag and blackout would have to be non-existent, before it could even be considered. That being said, the ergonomic integration would also have to be flawless, so that only the information that is desired in the EVF or as overlays in the OVF can be fully (meaning no limits) customised by the user. There also needs to be a one-external-button-press available for magnification of the EVF. The other additions I would like to see are a flip up EVF and alternative framing ratios - 4x3, 6x7 and square. Better and more sophisticated coding for all focal lengths to allow more sophisticated and accurate EXIF information, including for the frequently used 40mm and for lenses over 135mm. Obviously, all this would have to set new standards of bug free, robust reliability. Any thoughts? An EVF like Fuji's X Pro would ruin Leica. That camera is such a pain to use with all it buttons. I use X-E1's and hate the controls. My list is short. If Leica can't reduce the price at least give us top end sensors instead of second rate sensors. The main reason I shoot Leica is simplicity and manual controls. Without that I'd dump Leica. Leica can also improve on the lag time when shooting live view. Would also like to see a top end 10mm to 12 mm super wide from Leica. Something under $4000. I used Fuji and Leica for this project. Fuji for night work, Leica for day. nsfw De Wallen - Amsterdam's Red Light District Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted February 20, 2015 Share #14 Posted February 20, 2015 I know it is an anathema to many who love Leica, but I think that to attract new users Leica has to invest in some very specific new technology. [... snip low-hanging fruit ...] So what would I like to see?[...] Not so fast, Buster. Consider that your view, ignoring how erred as it is in some points, does not reflect the concerns of Leica's significant constituency. But do go on to include yourself if it makes you feel good to be another of the self-appointed design, marketing and CEO wannabes with ideas as if Leica had not already had the same and is moving on. Do you think they manufacture then sleep? That's just silly. Yours are just another of hundreds of similar posits. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subject Focus Posted February 20, 2015 Share #15 Posted February 20, 2015 What's wrong with the M240s EVF? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyField Posted February 20, 2015 Share #16 Posted February 20, 2015 All of those magical variations would, IMHO, destroy the M camera and it's usage. May as well use one of the new camera with those features built in. In keeping with the current M style, the only thing I can think of would be to add a quick way to do one shot exposure compensation -- not everybody shoots static lighting shots. To me, the present method of compensation is only sometimes useful since it is too slow to use. Even film M cameras that have a top of camera lightmeter could do exposure compensation much faster than the present Leicas. One quick way to do this, consistent with the present M-style would be to add a simple feature to the half-button shutter press (which gives exposure lock). The exposure system still can meter. The photographer can then adjust the lens diaphramme. The camera could project a number between -9 and +9 that shows the exposure compensation in 1/3 stop increments indicating how far you have adjusted the lens diaphramme. This exposure compensation number would replace the shutter speed number in the display. Of course, after the shutter is released, the shutter speed number would return. I think this would only require a firmware change (and a menu option to turn this feature on/off) even for existing cameras. For things I like to shoot, this would be a fine addition giving "aperture change" for compensation as well as retaining the present method of compensation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Barnack Posted February 20, 2015 Share #17 Posted February 20, 2015 Wolfoid, If you want a Fuji why not go buy one? A lot of people want an M240 - but they want it to cost the same as a Fuji X100T. People in hell want ice water, too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
semi-ambivalent Posted February 20, 2015 Share #18 Posted February 20, 2015 Would also like to see a top end 10mm to 12 mm super wide from Leica. Something under $4000. Well, make up your mind. s-a Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted February 20, 2015 Share #19 Posted February 20, 2015 What I don't see in the other discussions is a focus on the points I've made, particularly on the hybrid EVF. Your search skills are deficient. If you don't like the link I already gave you (that discussion includes your issue), just search for hybrid viewfinder for the M and get threads like… http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/customer-forum/356756-should-next-m-have-hybrid-viewfinder.html?langid=2 And the very first response in the above thread is a link to another discussion….from 4 years earlier. Old discussion….repeated ad nauseam. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted February 20, 2015 Share #20 Posted February 20, 2015 Incorrect The new EVF came to the market as a surprise and their hardware turned out to be unsuitable. Tough luck. All this discussion is pretty pointless if Leica aren't on the phone to Olympus (or Epson) and their other business partners to ask the simple question 'what's coming next?'. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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