Cuthbert Posted October 23, 2014 Share #1 Posted October 23, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Dear Leicisti, let me introduce myself: I'm Alex, I'm the happy owner of a 1960 M3, a 1980 M4-P, a 1972 M5 and now...a IIIb. I think. I must confess I'm not a great expert about screw mounted Leicas, but I had a spare 1940 Summitar and I fancied about getting an appropriate camera for this lens. Last Saturday I dropped in a famous Leica shop in London and found what was sold as a IIIc serial number 345xxx, of course I immediately recognised that it was a IIIb and not a c and that it appeared to have a flash synch added after the war, however the price was reasonable and the camera looked like in good condition so I bought it. At home I made some research and there are things on the top plate engraving that don't match up, in particular the camera is branded "Germany" (I don't think the Germans could export much in those days) and the serial number just has a dot instead of a line...the number itslef is shifted right, tough. Here there are some pics of the camera: At the moment the Summitar is at home so I use a Soviet Industar 61 in excellent shape: So I would like to ask the opinion of some expert, is the camera 100% legit? I still have the receipt and the seller told me that should I change my mind I can come back and take another one, he also has a 335XXX available but this one was nicer. BTW, legit or not the camera is an excellent performer, I took a test film, 38 exposures all came out pretty well with Sunny 16 rule. Perhaps there's a little light leak in this pic taken backlight in front the sun: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 Hi Cuthbert, Take a look here 1940 Leica IIIb...or not?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
lorax412 Posted October 23, 2014 Share #2 Posted October 23, 2014 Does the flash sync look factory added? Often times when upgrades involves the top plate they would use a new one and re-engrave the original serial number. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerzy Posted October 23, 2014 Share #3 Posted October 23, 2014 I cannot see any flash sync, but if there is one than is not factory added. Upgrades to IIIb/f had top cover (not top plate) replaced with different shaping around the speed dial. SN look quite fine for me, dot under o is not a dot but underline. Jerzy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuthbert Posted October 23, 2014 Author Share #4 Posted October 23, 2014 Thank you for the answers, here there's a picture of of the back: It looks like a a pro job but I can't say if it was factory added...and the dot looks like a dot, not a line. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lorax412 Posted October 24, 2014 Share #5 Posted October 24, 2014 That does look like a good conversion. Some bad non-factory ones go in through the top, right through the logo. Somehow does not look factory-upgraded though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted October 24, 2014 Share #6 Posted October 24, 2014 I definitely don't like the top engravings... it's true that wartime items are often made with some odd details (there were hard problems on the workforce' side) but,as you have pointed, the "Germany" writing and, above all, the s/n don't look good : this doesn't mean it is a Russian fake (frankly doesn't look at all such a thing), but maybe a 3rd party reconstruction... take note that, apart position, also the style of some digits ("3" , "4", maybe "5" too) aren't right... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/235959-1940-leica-iiibor-not/?do=findComment&comment=2694462'>More sharing options...
Cuthbert Posted October 24, 2014 Author Share #7 Posted October 24, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) thank you for the input guys, I agree that the conversion looks nicely done, I'm no expert about factor jobs but the rest of the camera doesn't look updated. The top cover is debrassed and with a nice number of scratches as well, so it looks old to me.Is the shape correct for a IIIb? Could it be possible that the camera has Benn re-engraved/retopped when it received the flash synch? The rest of the camera looks legit to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
payasam Posted October 25, 2014 Share #8 Posted October 25, 2014 I'd say it's a genuine IIIb. The R/F focus control ("diopter" adjustment) has a little knob at its end. So did the early IIIc, but starting with that model the frame counter arrow is at the rear, near the shutter release. The flash socket is neatly done, but it would probably have been lower if it had been done in the factory. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted October 25, 2014 Share #9 Posted October 25, 2014 thank you for the input guys, I agree that the conversion looks nicely done, I'm no expert about factor jobs but the rest of the camera doesn't look updated. The top cover is debrassed and with a nice number of scratches as well, so it looks old to me.Is the shape correct for a IIIb? Could it be possible that the camera has Benn re-engraved/retopped when it received the flash synch? The rest of the camera looks legit to me. Yes, that 's the most probable hipotesis...a well done job, with some minor "errors" in the engravings, made on an original camera : all in all, not a bad item to have. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerzy Posted October 25, 2014 Share #10 Posted October 25, 2014 here is the factory added sync. Note different shape of flash socket. All screw mount Leicas did have it. Note as well tope cover with engraved numbers for flash adjustement around the dial speed. In order to accomodate flash sync contacts top cover have different shape than the original one and was always replaced as part of upgrade. Btw. I have an postwar upgrade from I to IIIa (not sync), Leica used as well top cover shaped as for sync Leicas however w/o engraved flash numbers. jerzy Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/235959-1940-leica-iiibor-not/?do=findComment&comment=2695002'>More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted October 25, 2014 Share #11 Posted October 25, 2014 Yes, that 's the most probable hipotesis...a well done job, with some minor "errors" in the engravings, made on an original camera : all in all, not a bad item to have. For me there is a similtude with the kind of engraving made on the IIIa Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuthbert Posted October 27, 2014 Author Share #12 Posted October 27, 2014 here is the factory added sync. Note different shape of flash socket. All screw mount Leicas did have it. Note as well tope cover with engraved numbers for flash adjustement around the dial speed. In order to accomodate flash sync contacts top cover have different shape than the original one and was always replaced as part of upgrade. Btw. I have an postwar upgrade from I to IIIa (not sync), Leica used as well top cover shaped as for sync Leicas however w/o engraved flash numbers.jerzy Excuse m jay but doesn't the F have the sync installed more or less in the same positions as in my camera? http://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/images/iiif/D3S_9660-1200.jpg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuthbert Posted October 27, 2014 Author Share #13 Posted October 27, 2014 For me there is a similtude with the kind of engraving made on the IIIa That's interesting, do I have to assume that besides the serial number and the writing "Germany" perhaps too bold the other engravings (Leica, DRP etc...) are correct? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted October 28, 2014 Share #14 Posted October 28, 2014 That's interesting, do I have to assume that besides the serial number and the writing "Germany" perhaps too bold the other engravings (Leica, DRP etc...) are correct? They look 100% correct... their "strict originality" depends on how the lab did perform its "upgrade" job... which top they have used ... a spare part ? a top taken from a broken camera and re-numbered ?... who knows... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerzy Posted October 28, 2014 Share #15 Posted October 28, 2014 Excuse m jay but doesn't the F have the sync installed more or less in the same positions as in my camera? http://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/images/iiif/D3S_9660-1200.jpg Hi, Look at http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-sammler-historica/172222-leica-umbauten.html in German Forum. There are pics of some upgrades there. Not all flashes shown there are done by Leica. Position of flash socket on IIIa/b synced is below the accessory shoe. This is different than on IIIf. But what I mentioned is that the socket itself has a different shape, and every factory flash upgrade had either top cover replaced for IIIa and some IIIc or a plate was added on IIIc around the speed dial. Purpose was to set up flash bulb ignition time which was different for various type/vendor of flash bulbs. Btw. Has anyone of forum members have seen factory upgrade of IIIb to IIIb/f? did not come across yet. Jerzy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuthbert Posted October 28, 2014 Author Share #16 Posted October 28, 2014 Hi, Look at http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-sammler-historica/172222-leica-umbauten.html in German Forum. There are pics of some upgrades there. Not all flashes shown there are done by Leica. Position of flash socket on IIIa/b synced is below the accessory shoe. This is different than on IIIf. But what I mentioned is that the socket itself has a different shape, and every factory flash upgrade had either top cover replaced for IIIa and some IIIc or a plate was added on IIIc around the speed dial. Purpose was to set up flash bulb ignition time which was different for various type/vendor of flash bulbs.Btw. Has anyone of forum members have seen factory upgrade of IIIb to IIIb/f? did not come across yet. Jerzy It looks like they replaced one screw of the top cover with the flash synch...at least on the IIIa on the first page, and in that case they didn't have much choice since the viewfinder is far away from the rangefinder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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