dant Posted September 17, 2014 Author Share #141 Posted September 17, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Funny how angry some people are about this camera. I'm just (mildly) annoyed it's only a collectors' version. With some luck it may one day become a production camera - then all of the angst that people appear to have about the screen or its absence can be re-hashed all over again! Just disgusted about the direction Leica headed in. Leica caters to collectors, the rich and not the documentary photogs their company was built on. Instead of using top notch sensors they use 2nd rate sensors charge a fortune for it then come out with $20,000 limited edition, gimmicky cameras like the M60. Things like that get under your skin. I use Leicas cause they have manual controls, are small and are rangefinders. (When my Fuji wont focus my Leicas will.) But when it comes down to it, I feel Leica is for camera fondlers more so than serious documentary use. Sure, you can use them as such, but you'd better be rich. For the stupendous price of a Leica, they should always be on the top end of tech and not always behind the field and at triple the price. My Fujis are in the ballpark with my Leicas, with IQ. (Although the MM's are a lot sharper than the Fuji's.) But you'd figure the Leica FF would be a lot better than the Fujis. But Leica is too busy with camera fondlers that care about cosmetic looks over performance. I have to laugh at these guys that say they want to be surprised so no screen for them to review photos. Why don't they shut their screen review off and save thousands? Why didn't Leica put a phony film advance in the M60 and charge another thousand or two for that? Well, maybe Leica needs to have gimmick cams to survive? If so and the Japanese wont come out with an affordable rangefinder, one must suck it up and pay the price if you can afford it and want a digital rangefinder. If their screenless M60 Leica was $2500, I'd consider one, but only as a back up cam. But that is all it is worth to me. I'd do so just for the low cost, but would never prefer a screenless digital cam over a cam with a screen to check my work on the fly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 17, 2014 Posted September 17, 2014 Hi dant, Take a look here Why would anyone want a Leica with no screen?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
zlatkob Posted September 17, 2014 Share #142 Posted September 17, 2014 There is no video. I suspect the button just activates part of the display information for SD memory & battery (but we will see) That makes sense. The B&H page says battery and memory card info are displayed in the viewfinder. A button press likely turns some of the displayed info on and off. Either that or it's the "delete everything" button. I'm wary of that camera strap attached to a screw (?) on the leather case only. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted September 17, 2014 Share #143 Posted September 17, 2014 Hi John, I saw your edit but: There is no video. I suspect the button just activates part of the display information for SD memory & battery (but we will see) I don't think they will go back to the USB connector. Although annoying it is easy to get a USB card reader for your MBP. The third window was always for the frameline illuminator which is not needed in the M Edition 60 , like the M240, as the framelines are LED-illuminated. Mark Thanks. Mark. I'd worked that out. I then watched the video and saw that it comes with a case and strap. I like the fact that the frame lines are read from the coding. There is a lot in there that I hope appears in the future (where the M9 Titanium didn't appeal at all). Now, if I sold my M9P and Summilux 35 FLE ... GAS Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archiver Posted September 17, 2014 Share #144 Posted September 17, 2014 This may sound not a little cynical, but any operational shortcomings that the camera may suffer from the lack of screen will be offset by the fact that most buyers will not shoot with it. At only 600 units, milled out of stainless steel, presented in a luxurious box and bundled with a matching 35 'lux, this is obviously aimed at collectors and not users. I'm still surprised that Leica went ahead with it. But I won't be surprised when the 600 units sell out very quickly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted September 17, 2014 Share #145 Posted September 17, 2014 Dirk, you're basically right. I fall into your group regarding how I like my car gearbox, fountain pen, coffee, and why I like my Monochrom. I'm somewhat critical of the implementation, not the concept. 1. Compare this to the Monochrom was only slightly more expensive than the M9/M240 and although initially limited in supply was not a limited edition. Many people thought, and still do think, that the Monochrom was a brave/stupid idea. This is an expensive limited edition that can only be bought with a 35 Summilux and probably not accessible to many Leica users who would really want this camera. Let's see if a more accessible version goes into regular production. Doing this camera as introduced is (as witnessing just the comments in this thread) a highly radical move. A camera without display today where every gadget on the planet needs bigger and bigger displays with every revision, as it is fed by marketing deep into potential customers throats? It is absolutely against the grain. I think Leica's strategists played this one both safe (running it as a modestly expensive limited special edition run) and clever as using it for the occasion of marketing an anniversary. The price: lets be very honest - all Leica products are priced with initial cost of purchase far out of most peoples budgets, so one really needs to compare this product to likewise items (not likewise in terms of specs and numbers but in terms of closest existing product in the current range of Leica items). Comparing a kit of Leica M10 + 35/1.4 FLE against this special edition kit makes it just roughly 50% more expensive. This is a far cry from earlier introduced similar exercises and could be considered a bargain . 2. If the idea is of a 'pure' form follows function M digital camera then I would expect a real-world user would want neck/wrist strap lugs and a cable release socket, and probably the traditional lens preview lever. I thought about this as well - in fact this was my very first thought when seeing the body design. But then I thought a bit how I use my cameras: I have standard Leica nylon straps with quick releases on all my M bodies. I have standard wide cotton/nylon shoulder straps on my SLR cameras. So far, as hard, as I can think back, I have never ever dropped a camera. When I am taking photos in whatever circumstances, I just hold the camera by the body and do not wrap around the strap. I might as well use no strap at all would I not use the strap for it's very only purpose of quickly slinging the camera over a shoulder when changing a battery/lens/card or even tying a shoelace. I am most of the time using a messenger style bag to carry two bodies and a couple of lenses. Instead of slinging the camera over a shoulder I could just drop it into the bag, … I understand for most people the strap has a much more important role - hence the vast market of handmade, fashionable, luxurious accessory straps ;-) For this purpose the camera can be fitted into a half case with strap, which in fact makes perfectly sense when thinking this over (not for me though, as I loathe half cases, leather straps, … "strongly centre-weighted" light meter setting only (what ever strongly means (? 80%) Battery, SD card info, camera settings are viewed through the viewfinder. It is still compatible with the EVF - good for R lens use I assume I would not expect any other light metering approach as the established and perfectly well working Leica center weighted metering. It is about this metering method, as it is about manual focussing, using a RF and even not wanting an LCD on the back of a camera - once you understand how this meter works, you simply need no other metering method. 4.Still don't know what the old video button does - maybe pressing it displays battery & SD info without otherwise cluttering the viewfinder. I am curious about this one as well, especially as it looks a bit "prototype grade" in one of the illustrations on the web - I assume the pictured camera is indeed one of the pre production units with not entirely perfect fit or the image is misleading. A functionality to switch on a battery meter reading and card capacity info would be a good workaround but nothing beats the instantly visibility of the M8 style frame counter window (also simplistic and even reminiscent of film M bodies albeit in another position). Drop the price for a standard production model, attend to some of the practical issues above and I'm very interested (? maybe a Monochrom ?). Should the general reaction on this cameras result in decidedly rapid sales of the limited run, a good chance should be there that we see some features of this camera in a regular production M based form (I am sure Leica will use a modular approach, building a LCD less digital M on the base of the regular M as of tooling, software and assembly synergies). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted September 17, 2014 Share #146 Posted September 17, 2014 This may sound not a little cynical, but any operational shortcomings that the camera may suffer from the lack of screen will be offset by the fact that most buyers will not shoot with it. At only 600 units, milled out of stainless steel, presented in a luxurious box and bundled with a matching 35 'lux, this is obviously aimed at collectors and not users. I'm still surprised that Leica went ahead with it. But I won't be surprised when the 600 units sell out very quickly. This is exactly the genius about this exercise - Leica can practically test out the waters of the market with a very radical product, introducing some new design cues as well at no cost to the operation - I would not be surprised in fact if this project does not provide a nice big, fat profit in operational Q1 earnings which otherwise would state on the other side of the balance sheet as a depressingly expensive "R&D + prototyping + market analysis cost figure" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted September 17, 2014 Share #147 Posted September 17, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Doing this camera as introduced is (as witnessing just the comments in this thread) a highly radical move.A camera without display today where every gadget on the planet needs bigger and bigger displays with every revision, as it is fed by marketing deep into potential customers throats? It is absolutely against the grain. I think Leica's strategists played this one both safe (running it as a modestly expensive limited special edition run) and clever as using it for the occasion of marketing an anniversary. The price: lets be very honest - all Leica products are priced with initial cost of purchase far out of most peoples budgets, so one really needs to compare this product to likewise items (not likewise in terms of specs and numbers but in terms of closest existing product in the current range of Leica items). Comparing a kit of Leica M10 + 35/1.4 FLE against this special edition kit makes it just roughly 50% more expensive. This is a far cry from earlier introduced similar exercises and could be considered a bargain . I thought about this as well - in fact this was my very first thought when seeing the body design. But then I thought a bit how I use my cameras: I have standard Leica nylon straps with quick releases on all my M bodies. I have standard wide cotton/nylon shoulder straps on my SLR cameras. So far, as hard, as I can think back, I have never ever dropped a camera. When I am taking photos in whatever circumstances, I just hold the camera by the body and do not wrap around the strap. I might as well use no strap at all would I not use the strap for it's very only purpose of quickly slinging the camera over a shoulder when changing a battery/lens/card or even tying a shoelace. I am most of the time using a messenger style bag to carry two bodies and a couple of lenses. Instead of slinging the camera over a shoulder I could just drop it into the bag, … I understand for most people the strap has a much more important role - hence the vast market of handmade, fashionable, luxurious accessory straps ;-) For this purpose the camera can be fitted into a half case with strap, which in fact makes perfectly sense when thinking this over (not for me though, as I loathe half cases, leather straps, … I would not expect any other light metering approach as the established and perfectly well working Leica center weighted metering. It is about this metering method, as it is about manual focussing, using a RF and even not wanting an LCD on the back of a camera - once you understand how this meter works, you simply need no other metering method. I am curious about this one as well, especially as it looks a bit "prototype grade" in one of the illustrations on the web - I assume the pictured camera is indeed one of the pre production units with not entirely perfect fit or the image is misleading. A functionality to switch on a battery meter reading and card capacity info would be a good workaround but nothing beats the instantly visibility of the M8 style frame counter window (also simplistic and even reminiscent of film M bodies albeit in another position). Should the general reaction on this cameras result in decidedly rapid sales of the limited run, a good chance should be there that we see some features of this camera in a regular production M based form (I am sure Leica will use a modular approach, building a LCD less digital M on the base of the regular M as of tooling, software and assembly synergies). Just a few points: If not in a camera bag I use the strap to carry my camera over my shoulder, or wrap the strap around my wrist to secure the camera in my hand when shooting. I did buy one of those nice straps (a thin black Arte di Mano) because of its functionality as it's thin and soft (hand chewed by natives to soften it ) and wraps easily and comfortably around my wrist. I do not always use a half-cse because of the bulk. So a strap is very important to me. I would have assumed it was the standard Leica centre weighting with which I'm most familiar and that's how I've set my M240. It's just that the B&H site specifically mentioned 'strong' whatever that means. I would have liked a small top plate display also (really neat if it could display a histogram - the main feature I'd miss without a rear display. Interesting that Leica kept the EVF option. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exodies Posted September 17, 2014 Share #148 Posted September 17, 2014 Is it the act of looking at the back of a camera which is distasteful? I've misunderstood this whole concept - I thought it was a need to not have a screen (I tend to take things literally) but now we have a screen hidden in the viewfinder and talk of a screen on the top plate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
harvey999999 Posted September 17, 2014 Share #149 Posted September 17, 2014 I just think it continues in the fine Leica tradition - those of us with an M9 know what it's like not to be able to use a screen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exodies Posted September 17, 2014 Share #150 Posted September 17, 2014 Traditions are solutions to problems we no longer have. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leica2f Posted September 17, 2014 Share #151 Posted September 17, 2014 This really is beyond my comprehension.. For practical photography why not having a screen? I would have loved to see a tilt-swivel display that can be closed and then looks exactly like the back flap on a film Leica. Just a thought. Frank Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
justj Posted September 17, 2014 Share #152 Posted September 17, 2014 .. For practical photography why not having a screen? Frank But Leica is not for practical photography. I won't be surprised if Leica rolling out a no sensor limited edition. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 17, 2014 Share #153 Posted September 17, 2014 There's already a multi-page thread about this here: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m-type-240/343577-rumor-leica-announce-digital-rangefinder-without.html It all seems a bit daft to me really, but I suppose it does no one any harm. The only real gain is the Leica Balance sheet. They are probably already difficult to get due to collectors and the must have brigade. Lets face it if Leica said S--- was tasty 1000 Leica users ,sorry owners would try it. BrianP Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archiver Posted September 17, 2014 Share #154 Posted September 17, 2014 But Leica is not for practical photography. I won't be surprised if Leica rolling out a no sensor limited edition. Das Unglaubliche! The Unbelievable! Das Unsichtbar! The Invisible! Das Lächerlich! The Preposterous! "To celebrate 60 years of tradition, Leica presents the M Typ 000. Milled from a single block of depleted uranium and hand polished for over a hundred hours, the Typ 000 has the solid heft of quality befitting the expectations of Leica aficionados through history. "Covered with the skin of the Komodo Dragon, the Typ 000 represents the essence of Leica photography: the invisible, the unbelievable, the preposterous. "The robustness of the Typ 000 is absolute, as the interior is completely solid. The omission of electronics and film mechanisms ensures that the Typ 000 will not fall prey to obsolescence of any kind. Regardless of the imaging technologies of the future, the Typ 000 will remain. The M Typ 000 is truly a camera for eternity. "Capturing the most iconic images in photographic history has been the purview of Leica for decades, and the choice to use depleted uranium was made to symbolize the weight, the gravitas, of such a legacy. Presented in a secure display case crafted from the finest Himalayan Yak leather, with a matching set of 28mm, 35mm and 50mm Nocticrons also carved from depleted uranium, the Typ 000 is sure to find its way into collectors vaults all over the world." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted September 17, 2014 Share #155 Posted September 17, 2014 Das Unglaubliche! The Unbelievable! Das Unsichtbar! The Invisible! Das Lächerlich! The Preposterous! "To celebrate 60 years of tradition, Leica presents the M Typ 000. Milled from a single block of depleted uranium and hand polished for over a hundred hours, the Typ 000 has the solid heft of quality befitting the expectations of Leica aficionados through history. "Covered with the skin of the Komodo Dragon, the Typ 000 represents the essence of Leica photography: the invisible, the unbelievable, the preposterous. "The robustness of the Typ 000 is absolute, as the interior is completely solid. The omission of electronics and film mechanisms ensures that the Typ 000 will not fall prey to obsolescence of any kind. Regardless of the imaging technologies of the future, the Typ 000 will remain. The M Typ 000 is truly a camera for eternity. "Capturing the most iconic images in photographic history has been the purview of Leica for decades, and the choice to use depleted uranium was made to symbolize the weight, the gravitas, of such a legacy. Presented in a secure display case crafted from the finest Himalayan Yak leather, with a matching set of 28mm, 35mm and 50mm Nocticrons also carved from depleted uranium, the Typ 000 is sure to find its way into collectors vaults all over the world." :D:D Very funny - thanks for that ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted September 17, 2014 Share #156 Posted September 17, 2014 After seeing the thing at Photokina yesterday, I was distinctly unimpressed. Without the stiff on the back, the camera looks more corpulent than ever. One for the collectors, not for me. I did however very much like the M-P in black. A welcome return of the preview lever, the cosmetics and the rest. The screw looked fine, preferred the black to the silver plus of course the button on the back is now black as well. The T display was much lower key than I expected, a few samples of the new lenses but hardly shouting about it from the roof tops. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leica2f Posted September 17, 2014 Share #157 Posted September 17, 2014 But Leica is not for practical photography. I won't be surprised if Leica rolling out a no sensor limited edition. Well, in my humble opinion it is. Anyways I have mine to take lots of pictures. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted September 17, 2014 Share #158 Posted September 17, 2014 After seeing the thing at Photokina yesterday, I was distinctly unimpressed. Without the stiff on the back, the camera looks more corpulent than ever. One for the collectors, not for me. I did however very much like the M-P in black. A welcome return of the preview lever, the cosmetics and the rest. You mean removing the screen and buttons it didn't return to the thickness of an M6? Pfft. That's the only practical reason I could understand for wanting to see it in a production model. And I agree about the M-P, especially the frame lever and sapphire screen. IMO this is what the M should have been from day one. Currently in the US the M-P is $700 more than the (new, inflated) price of the M. I don't think too many people would have balked if the M had been $700 more but those features hadn't been deleted. At this point also I wouldn't want to be a dealer stuck with a shelf full of M's given the modest difference in price up to the -P. IMO this business model of Leica's where they delete/strip features on a new model only to reintroduce those same features on a P model in mid-run is kind of disgusting, but even more disgusting is the fact that it is successful for them time and again. They know their market. Again, IMO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 17, 2014 Share #159 Posted September 17, 2014 It could never revert to the thickness of the M6. The sensor and motherboard ( and battery) take up too much space. If one would like such a camera it would have a protruding lens mount and would need a smaller battery. Nobody is forcing you to buy a "P" model, though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted September 17, 2014 Share #160 Posted September 17, 2014 The original M should have been what it was, I prefer it far more then then M-P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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