kenneth Posted August 22, 2014 Author Share #21 Posted August 22, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) I think that one needs to be very careful about describing anything that still works as it was designed to "obsolete", although that is one of the definitions of the word adjective 1. no longer in general use; fallen into disuse: an obsolete expression. 2. of a discarded or outmoded type; out of date: an obsolete battleship. 3. (of a linguistic form) no longer in use, especially, out of use for at least the past century. 4. effaced by wearing down or away. Is a digital camera obsolete just because another one is now made that takes "better" photographs? Does a new model instantly render all previous ones obsolete even if they are still working perfectly? A film camera will never be obsolete as long as there is film made to put into it. As soon as the last film is made, the camera will be useless. No, it is not obsolete if a newer model supersedes it. One could still use the old model as before but if the manufacturer pulls the plug on the model you have purchased then it's days could be numbered and that is the issue I have. As I said originally, the other items I quoted as an example of continue to function as they did when I purchased them and should any of those items fail they can be returned to full working order by the manufacturer who made them in the first place. I think it would be fair to say that we may have reached an impasse in this discussion. I am personally pleased that the £6,000.00 needed to move on with the purchase of a Leica Monochrom M body still resided safely in my bank at present. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 Hi kenneth, Take a look here Thinking of buying a Monochrom M. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
andybarton Posted August 22, 2014 Share #22 Posted August 22, 2014 I think that you are overthinking this. If you have £6,000 to spend without compromising any other commitments, and want a Monochrom, just go and buy one and don't worry about it. However, given the amount of soul-searching you have been doing about this only today, I would say that such a purchase is not for you. If you do want to move to a digital M, you would be much better off (to the tune of about three grand) by buying a warranted, well looked after M9, from a good dealer. And then you can spend the three grand you have saved on a great trip to use the camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenneth Posted August 22, 2014 Author Share #23 Posted August 22, 2014 My quick reaction is that the offer was probably fair, given the current market value of M8 cameras. Remember they do depreciate quite rapidly in their first three or four years. They are already two generations behind current offerings.Why is it, and I have noticed this in the past with this forum, nobody will say anything negative about Leica? I don't agree that an offer of 20% resolves the issue for someone who has laid out the thick end of £2,500.00 for an M8 to be told 3 years down the line that the manufacturer no longer supports that particular model but I do accept that technology is very fast paced. If this thread makes one or two think before they invest then it has been worth the effort. I was really hoping that I might have my fears allayed and move forward with my purchase of a Monochrom M body but that certainly has not been the case Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted August 22, 2014 Share #24 Posted August 22, 2014 I was really hoping that I might have my fears allayed and move forward with my purchase of a Monochrom M body but that certainly has not been the case What on earth do you think anyone here can say that might allay your fears? I'm not a clairvoyant, nor do I think is anyone else hanging around this forum. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted August 22, 2014 Share #25 Posted August 22, 2014 Why is it, and I have noticed this in the past with this forum, nobody will say anything negative about Leica? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted August 22, 2014 Share #26 Posted August 22, 2014 I was really hoping that I might have my fears allayed Kenneth Do not buy a Monochrom. You will forever be worrying about it breaking down (even though it probably won't) and will not be able to enjoy it. Your blood pressure won't be able to stand the strain when Leica actually stop making this model and move on to making a newer model Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted August 22, 2014 Share #27 Posted August 22, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Why is it, and I have noticed this in the past with this forum, nobody will say anything negative about Leica? Buy the MM. If it goes bad, without adequate remedy, then you can be the very first person on the forum to ever complain about Leica. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenneth Posted August 22, 2014 Author Share #28 Posted August 22, 2014 It is a strange thing, this defensive, protective stand-point that so many in this forum pursue for Leica when, of course they are perfectly capable dealing with any criticism laid at their door. Still, so be it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
williamgm Posted August 22, 2014 Share #29 Posted August 22, 2014 Nobody can even be 100% certain that Leica (or any of the other smaller manufacturers) will be in business in 10 years time, let alone the products they make. It's unlikely, and of course everyone hopes Leica can continue & thrive but they have had a few sticky moments in the past…. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wda Posted August 22, 2014 Share #30 Posted August 22, 2014 Why is it, and I have noticed this in the past with this forum, nobody will say anything negative about Leica?... Far from it. See my contribution to this thread http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-x1-forum/342623-leica-x-vario-x-series-firmware.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted August 22, 2014 Share #31 Posted August 22, 2014 Why is it, and I have noticed this in the past with this forum, nobody will say anything negative about Leica? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted August 22, 2014 Share #32 Posted August 22, 2014 It is a strange thing, this defensive, protective stand-point that so many in this forum pursue for Leica when, of course they are perfectly capable dealing with any criticism laid at their door. Still, so be it. You're not reading enough. The complaints about the M8 screen issues, for instance, were so broad and vehement that Leica reps addressed forum members directly by posting here and by announcing their 'upgrade' policy. And when Leica doesn't do something else that some expect or want, there are many who jump on the complaint bandwagon. There's plenty of discussion…on all sides. Of course there are some who may have close company ties, but that's not surprising given the small company approach that relies on members for beta testing and otherwise. I'm sure a lot is spoken behind doors. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted August 22, 2014 Share #33 Posted August 22, 2014 It is a strange thing, this defensive, protective stand-point that so many in this forum pursue for Leica when, of course they are perfectly capable dealing with any criticism laid at their door. Still, so be it. There is no way on this earth that if had read the posts on this forum you can be that naieve as to not have seen the criticism, sniveling, whining and general complaints leveled against Leica for cost, QC, QA, service, design, size, weight, color, labeling. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Martin Posted August 22, 2014 Share #34 Posted August 22, 2014 Save yourself the worry with the risk that doing so will be so stressful that it shortens your life. Don't buy one . You are right, the watch and guitar will still be going strong and they may not have an interest in these things anyway Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldman Posted August 22, 2014 Share #35 Posted August 22, 2014 Are you, in some way able to allay my fears and give me the product confidence to buy a Monochrom M How could we? You seem determined not to buy what is widely recognised as a classic Leica camera. Best not to get one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted August 22, 2014 Share #36 Posted August 22, 2014 I was really hoping that I might have my fears allayed and move forward with my purchase of a Monochrom M body Fear and worry are a large part of Leica photography for many people, almost like the fear of the unknown, 'what happens next?'. You only have to read the forum to see that many people are consumed with angst and trepidation, and yes, Leica don't help this fear in their communications and 'expectations'. But I think if you have a mission, and a photographic goal to aim for, then the fear can be channelled into some sort of common sense. I mean you wouldn't loose all your money in one go, your camera could be several generations old before rumours started that they could no longer be repaired, so them you could sell it and recoup a good proportion. By then you may well be ready for the new model anyway, if your mission is still ongoing. Then look at it in the simplest way many people do, they have a drawer full of lenses, worth a mint, and a new body now and again is a relatively small price considering the amount of money many other people lose every year by jumping camera systems vainly looking for 'the next best thing'. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NikonJeff Posted August 22, 2014 Share #37 Posted August 22, 2014 Why is it, and I have noticed this in the past with this forum, nobody will say anything negative about Leica? I don't agree that an offer of 20% resolves the issue for someone who has laid out the thick end of £2,500.00 for an M8 to be told 3 years down the line that the manufacturer no longer supports that particular model but I do accept that technology is very fast paced. If this thread makes one or two think before they invest then it has been worth the effort. I was really hoping that I might have my fears allayed and move forward with my purchase of a Monochrom M body but that certainly has not been the case You've apparently missed my rants about the crap job they did with the last firmware revision for the M9/MM/ME that was released with known issues and hasn't been addressed in 2+ years and likely never will be because Leica has "moved on" to another body series. The reality is that all digital cameras seem to have a track record of depreciating at a substantially higher rate than film cameras. It's hard for any manufacturer to promise that they'll be able to service and support an electronic product for xxx years because there are too many variables involved. Sourcing of components is a major item as Leica, Canon, Nikon etc don't manufacturer the sub assemblies that make up their cameras. Today's digital cameras are really no different than a computer with a lens mount on them. Apple for instance issues a list monthly of all the items that are "aged out" of support to us as field technicians. If you're lucky a product will be supported for 5 years in the computer world (roughly stated). Not sure how anyone expects a camera manufacturer to guarantee a product's support beyond the manufacturer's warranty and EOL (End Of Life) status. Leica offering to extend a 20% discount or whatever is IMHO unheard of and to be honest they have NO legal reason to do so, just a carrot offering to lessen the burden in an act of customer service. As so many folks have stated it really depends on your financial situation and what you're going to use the camera for. If you're a professional photographer earning a living with your camera, it's a tool. Buy it if there is a business need and use it until it is of no more use. If it's a personal purchase - that changes the whole tune - buy it if you want it and can afford it knowing the pitfalls which are well documented on the forum. The digital camera is no longer a box that captures light, it is a box with the never changing film that captures the light. We used to change films when a new or better one came along and simply use out original camera body - that's no longer how it works and the upgrade is expensive! BTW - I purchased my Nikon D3 cameras NEW in November of 2007 for $4650, and today they're worth about $1500 after shooting almost 7 years of weddings ~ 33% of original value… I purchased my Leica M9 NEW in May 2012 for $6000 and today, 2 years later it's worth $3000 ~ 50% of it's original purchased value… *OUCH* They're tools to me, so I'll shoot with them until they are of no use or can't be repaired… Best of luck with your decision. Jeff G. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenneth Posted August 22, 2014 Author Share #38 Posted August 22, 2014 Firstly, I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread. It has certainly moved on my thought process. I saw an interesting comparative test, I think it was Steve Huff who created identical images using a Leica Monochrom M with a 35mm Summicron M asph- V- a Leica M6 and the same lens with the M6 loaded with Kodak Tri- X. My initial reaction was that I preferred the images taken with the M6. It was only, after some time I realised that there were options. Instead of coming down on one side or the other, film or digital there was a place for both and I started to see how both processes could be used as creative tools. I take the point mentioned earlier that if I earned a living with a camera I would have purchased a Monochrom M long ago but I am just a hobby photographer, albeit, of 50 years experience and although the funds are there I need to make sure that I am buying into a new process for the right reasons. It may have something to do with being a canny tight Yorkshireman Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldman Posted August 23, 2014 Share #39 Posted August 23, 2014 As a canny Yorkshireman myself I let a bit of that stuff in that Yorkshire men supposedly don't have - emotion. The cost, which is significant as I'm not a Doctor, Dentist, Vet, Surgeon, Lawyer (delete as appropriate), is more than offset by the joy and the delight of use. It is without doubt the best camera I've ever owned; I'm getting on a bit and I've had them all, The plasticky Nikon D4s, and the top end Canon, are getting close price wise but has none of the joy of the Monochrom. They can do more, but who wants more, unless you are a pro. If my Monochrom broke tomorrow I'd be devastated but I know Leica would fix it (eventually ), and if I had to, I would buy another one in a heartbeat. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted August 23, 2014 Share #40 Posted August 23, 2014 The plasticky Nikon D4s, and the top end Canon, are getting close price wise but has none of the joy of the Monochrom. "Joy" – I guess it depends upon what you use the camera for. There is a big wide world out there and plenty of fine photographers who I'm sure get plenty of satisfaction from cameras of all kinds. One thing I would say is that the fit and finish and general build quality of the top end Nikon and Canon cameras is noticeably superior to the Leica M9 and Monochrom bodies (not sure about the typ 240, I don't have one). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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