satijntje Posted July 14, 2014 Share #21 Posted July 14, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Don't worry about all that stuff it's a old camera and if you go online you only read the bad things... I've had a few M8's and none of them broke down on me. Lovely camera still today. ....just bought a black M8 last saturday for a very nice price (they now go well below 1k€). The Camera seems to be very little used. I will use it together with my 40mm Summicron-C and with the T with its native 23mm cron. This set will replace my M240 with 50mm Summilux, as I need AF for quick pics. The M8 for B&W pics will come in action when I have a bit more time for focussing. As I did to wanted to loose the RF feeling the M8 came on the floor at the right time :-) gr John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 Hi satijntje, Take a look here Leica M8. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
crow Posted July 14, 2014 Author Share #22 Posted July 14, 2014 Been unlucky my self. Been trying to buy a digital cam for the past 2 weeks and had one postponement after the other. Last one was I found a nice Leica M8 with the bug, at a price my minimum wage can afford, and the Leica shop in Berlin took almost 24 hours to answer my email, giving me an excuse that the camera had already been sold, even though I asked them to save it for me. People are bad these days. My Leica M5 reminds of human relationships back in the 70's, people were nicer, purer, they didn't lie. I've had two Olympus Om fixed at a repairman who was supposed to be one of the best in Athens, probably the oldest one still active, the guy fixed the one, the other he returned to me in a non working condition, I returned it to him and kept it for a year, finding excuses every time I called, as if he wanted me to leave it to him. Last call he put his employee find an excuse that it was her fault because she didn't remind him to fix it. People are bad. Greece is turning into a tourist circus, people visiting a place for a few days, spending their money superficially, turning a whole nation into waiters and waitresses who desperately please for a euro, having been treated by the Troika as if they were beggars and inferior to the rest of the europeans, as if there aren't any thieves in the rest of the countries in Europe, no fixed football games and bets, no prostitution, no drugs. Half of the people make you want to act positive, the other half just hold on to all the worst things characterized people since their beginning. Still wars, still causing pain, still not able to be nice, and fair. Now this may sound irrelevant to the M8, but not really. The M8 like any other camera captures all of these problems when shooting at the world. Only it is a peaceful shooting, one that doesn't get people killed, but turns them into subjects who have a place in the world. SO been unlucky, still no M8 cheap enough! Will hold on to my M5 till then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
satijntje Posted July 14, 2014 Share #23 Posted July 14, 2014 M8's are starting from 900 Euro onwards. Nice price for a nice camera! John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
crow Posted July 14, 2014 Author Share #24 Posted July 14, 2014 Let me know where to look for a 900 euro one, I' d be interested in a 800 one but 900 is kind of OK. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everywhen Posted July 14, 2014 Share #25 Posted July 14, 2014 Well best of luck with your wet chemical endeavours. To be brutally honest though unless you have absolute top quality enlargers, lenses, space to work, and proper washing facilities you are always going to come up short. My original advice still stands, put your efforts into something current and evolving. Messing about with film is as much a waste of time as messing about with analog audio and video equipment, you are basically learning something that is increasingly irrelevant, and has no real use beyond curiosity. To return to the original question, buy a M8, its a lovely camera that makes B+W images better than most cameras. You don't need to have used/use film to be a photographer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
crow Posted July 15, 2014 Author Share #26 Posted July 15, 2014 We will see when I learn how to print. Giving advice is OK in a forum, but one can't really change someone's mind, cause decisions are will and passion related, and this is personal, others can't mess with it! Also have got a coolscan IV ED scanner. Have you seen Francis Bacon's studio? Much unlike Miro's or Picasso's! Never the less his paintings are just as good! I don't particularly like him. How about Andre Kertesz, in the last years after his wife died, his studio was his NY apartment. We will see, this winter... Now if you people hear of an M8 being sold good price let me know, I may still haven't bought one. Just as an analog print should be able to compete an M8 image, an M8 image should be the product of some kind of technical skills. I am not refering to composition, I mean the tonal scale and the relationships between the tones should be more than a klick of the shutter button. And I don't mean photoshop. Photoshop is Kitsch. Well, for some people this is OK. Not me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everywhen Posted July 15, 2014 Share #27 Posted July 15, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Well it certainly looks like your mind is made up! I'm not sure about the comparisons to the painters studios you make, painting is a completely different beast to B+W printing, and in no way as dependant on top quality equipment for results. In the 30 odd years I've been photographing I've met only a couple of people who could really print, by which I mean get the kind of results people actually want to hang on their walls and they used top quality equipment way beyond the reach of most in purpose built darkrooms. Conversely though, even though I was not gifted enough to be a magical darkroom printer, with a digital workflow my prints reach a similar standard i.e. people want them on their walls. Good luck with the chemicals, I hope you discover you are one of the gifted ones! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 15, 2014 Share #28 Posted July 15, 2014 We will see when I learn how to print. Giving advice is OK in a forum, but one can't really change someone's mind, cause decisions are will and passion related, and this is personal, others can't mess with it! Also have got a coolscan IV ED scanner. Have you seen Francis Bacon's studio? Much unlike Miro's or Picasso's! Never the less his paintings are just as good! I don't particularly like him. How about Andre Kertesz, in the last years after his wife died, his studio was his NY apartment. We will see, this winter... Now if you people hear of an M8 being sold good price let me know, I may still haven't bought one. Just as an analog print should be able to compete an M8 image, an M8 image should be the product of some kind of technical skills. I am not refering to composition, I mean the tonal scale and the relationships between the tones should be more than a klick of the shutter button. And I don't mean photoshop. Photoshop is Kitsch. Well, for some people this is OK. Not me. Errr...How would you control tonal scales etc. without an editing program like Photoshop:confused:. This is like saying a wet print should be made without an enlarger. Enlargers are kitsch.... Photoshop is just a tool. The user produces the result which can be horrid or beautiful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
crow Posted July 15, 2014 Author Share #29 Posted July 15, 2014 That's all the way the other way. To be honest when I started painting, I hoped I would be one of the gifted ones. Painting for 25 years I still hope that I keep becoming better, and that I keep on learning and achieving good results. Now photography, as I have described, I am new at. I hope I will become better, learn how to print first(!), so the fact that I still haven't printed an image certainly doesn't mean I am one of the gifted ones , but also that that I still have some way to go. I hope I'll learn how to do it. But I am a long way from hoping I'll be one of the best, in photography. Painting, I doing well, but photography I am at a stage I can't talk about great stuff! I've got a durst M301, not so good enlarger, with a great lens Rodenstock apo 50/2.8. And I develop using caffenol recipes, and an Ilford fixer. The 35mm film come out good. Leica and OM zuiko are my equipment. I would be interested in hearing what you have to say about what equipment I should get in order to create the necessary photographic/darkroom environment to do really well, for a start, but really well! I am all ears. Jaap, I find photoshop too complicated, and of mostly impressively superficial results. One way to control the tonal relationships is to try to do it before you take the picture. Sorry, can't change my mind over this. 25 years of painting and looking at painting, I've developed a really strong criterion that makes me have my own thoughts about the matter. I don't want to sound bad, but I can't hide what I think of it, sorry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted July 16, 2014 Share #30 Posted July 16, 2014 I find photoshop too complicated, and of mostly impressively superficial results. One way to control the tonal relationships is to try to do it before you take the picture. Sorry, can't change my mind over this. I suggest that you stick to painting if you have closed your mind to the use of software like Photoshop. Its just a tool like any other. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexS Posted July 16, 2014 Share #31 Posted July 16, 2014 For what it's worth, I also found Photoshop (CS5) too complicated and the "light" versions a bit too superficial. I thought I would never figure it out and I became disappointed with the M8... But then I "discovered" Apple Aperture. I found the program very intuitive; every .dng file is literally treated like a negative within the enlarger... You can return to the .dng with a single "click" if you find that your development is too far out. Although Aperture will ultimately go away, the lessons I learned using Aperture have made me more confident with the digital workflow. It's great to get all of the tones you've pre-visualized straight out of the camera, but isn't that a bit unrealistic? I try my best when I shoot film, but I do spend time developing the film to suit the contrast of the scene and then enlarge with an eye toward again toward contrast, dodging+burning, etc. Digital photography seems to require the same philosophy; the .dng file is the negative that needs to be developed. The take-home message is that Photoshop is not the only program out there and it might be worth your while to "shop around" for a software package to get you started. There is a reason that so many people use Photoshop... Rex. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
crow Posted July 16, 2014 Author Share #32 Posted July 16, 2014 Now there is a chap he knows how to introduce his ideas. I actually have a macbook, not a pro, but I've started with the i photo. Having tried photoshop, and having not liked it at all, I downloaded aperture. Then came lightroom at an unbeatable price. Two times I was given photoshop, both times I just hid the cd away, cause it got onto my nerves just looking at it having tried it. Aperture sounds good, but also DXO, much more attractive that PS. I have to get the M8 first, then just lightroom and a good printer might do the job. Thanks for the support Rex. I think I am going to use the M8 as a tool to become better in the darkroom. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 16, 2014 Share #33 Posted July 16, 2014 That's all the way the other way. To be honest when I started painting, I hoped I would be one of the gifted ones. Painting for 25 years I still hope that I keep becoming better, and that I keep on learning and achieving good results. Now photography, as I have described, I am new at. I hope I will become better, learn how to print first(!), so the fact that I still haven't printed an image certainly doesn't mean I am one of the gifted ones , but also that that I still have some way to go. I hope I'll learn how to do it. But I am a long way from hoping I'll be one of the best, in photography. Painting, I doing well, but photography I am at a stage I can't talk about great stuff! I've got a durst M301, not so good enlarger, with a great lens Rodenstock apo 50/2.8. And I develop using caffenol recipes, and an Ilford fixer. The 35mm film come out good. Leica and OM zuiko are my equipment. I would be interested in hearing what you have to say about what equipment I should get in order to create the necessary photographic/darkroom environment to do really well, for a start, but really well! I am all ears. Jaap, I find photoshop too complicated, and of mostly impressively superficial results. One way to control the tonal relationships is to try to do it before you take the picture. Sorry, can't change my mind over this. 25 years of painting and looking at painting, I've developed a really strong criterion that makes me have my own thoughts about the matter. I don't want to sound bad, but I can't hide what I think of it, sorry. I think digital is not for you.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
crow Posted July 17, 2014 Author Share #34 Posted July 17, 2014 What we think is not necessarily the truth. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 17, 2014 Share #35 Posted July 17, 2014 No, but there is no way to master a craft if you close your mind to its basic tools. Nor if you blame the tool for the way it is used by some. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Lss- Posted July 17, 2014 Share #36 Posted July 17, 2014 M8's are starting from 900 Euro onwards. Nice price for a nice camera! Where is this? The local store prices I see are still in the 1800-2300 range (with M8 below 2k and M8.2 over 2k), and eBay is not much cheaper. I remember seeing several private sales locally and on eBay at around 1400-1600 previously this year, but things have slowed down during the summer. I considered getting a second body at around 1400, but the camera was sold before I made up my mind. At 900, I am interested. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jip Posted July 17, 2014 Share #37 Posted July 17, 2014 The way I hear you talk about the tools of our trade (photography) it sounds the same as me saying I want to paint, but only with my fingers because brushes and other tools I don't understand so I don't like them.... You simply need aperture, Photoshop, or Lightroom to processes your photos digitally just like you need brushes and tools for painting or you need a darkroom with darkroom techniques and contrast filters etc to get the result you want. Saying you don't want photoshop or another tool is like saying I will wet print photos and the first print is the final print even if it has a lack of contrast or whatever. Open your mind or stay with painting or don't complain about a picture that is not interesting because the technique you use is not good enough. I sometimes have great images in my head but I can't paint or draw so I can't produce the final product, it seems like you have that exact same problem with photography. The camera, the lens, the software and or darkroom are just tools, YOU are the person who creates and 'builds' the final product, the print. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
crow Posted July 17, 2014 Author Share #38 Posted July 17, 2014 Sorry, but you can't read. I mean read. It is not a problem, it's just a stage. I am not complaining I am making a statement. You don't have to agree with me. Don't try to change my mind, like I am not yours. Photoshop is not the only way to go. Learn how to read, then say what you say based on what is there, not what you're trying to see because you're afraid to see what;s there. Painting is not done only with brushes, and this is not new, its been done 100 years ago. You are wrong. Any way, I am not going to use photoshop, just lightroom. Period!!!! Again, we don;t agree, but what do you do, do you start throwing bombs, or accept the fact that someone doesn't have the same opinion as you do and go on with your life, let everyone else do what they want!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
crow Posted July 19, 2014 Author Share #39 Posted July 19, 2014 So, thanks to those who supported and helped me build on to my own thoughts and desires. To the ones whom I 've been unfortunate enough to continue to talk with but have proven more than in one threads that they have deliberately tried to clash with me, no matter what my thoughts would be, I can't forbid you to write on, but if you have some dignity left please don't continue to follow my threads. Like any average human being I don't like to disagree, I prefer not to talk at all instead if I have to choose between the two. OK? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilfredo Posted July 19, 2014 Share #40 Posted July 19, 2014 The M8 is the best digital camera for B&W photography out there unless you want to spring for the MM. My suggestion to you is that you find one and start taking pictures, have fun with it. Digital printing is not complicated, I've had quite a few shows of my work and I don't possess half the knowledge some of the experts on this forum possess. A used Epson that prints A3 will do you fine. Have some fun with it and don't worry about mastering the craft, you will learn by doing, and make wonderful discoveries along the way if you have the courage to take the leap. Good look luck and focus on your shots, the rest will follow! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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