fotomas Posted May 30, 2014 Share #61 Posted May 30, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Just my 2 ct. The main reason for me to buy the M240 was that it has a traditional RV. I use it for about 99.5% of my pictures. Otherwise I could have saved a lot of money and buy all that SoFuCaNi stuff. World is full of EVFs. Only thing that bother s me that the illumination now wasted energy without a benefit. In this case I would have preferred the mechanical classic version, witch also let you preview the lenses behavior. An M should always be an M! May be clever if Leica offers an E-type for the rest. f-) An E-type might be interesting for me, but not from Leica... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 30, 2014 Posted May 30, 2014 Hi fotomas, Take a look here RF vs EVF. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
xalo Posted May 30, 2014 Share #62 Posted May 30, 2014 Dirk, Adan, thanks for bringing the human behind the camera back into focus (sorry). Trueism, focus accuracy alone does not produce photographs. Trying to separate this matter from the photographic system is impractical. Making a worthwhile photograph is so much related to seeing, that I for one just don't get the feel for the reality in front of me when I look on yet another interposed electronic screen (Sean Reid has a nice write-up comparing a TV to a window). I checked out the EVF of the Olympus OM-D EM-1 (supposedly not too shabby) and just couldn't bear it. Not only it's an SLR like tunnel, but in addition it interferes with my senses! Adan, I like to use that cyborg example, too; but many seem to have a very strong urge to merge with the cybernetic world. Cheers, Alexander Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didinjoo Posted May 30, 2014 Share #63 Posted May 30, 2014 if I focus with zoom x 10 my photos are focused exactly where I wantI agree that focus peaking is disappointing but the zoom works perfectly I wonder why my photos are not really sharp except for landscape photography, and I found out two days ago during my holidays that the RF and EVF focuses not the same; and the EVF is more accurate than the RF and that was the reason why my photos are unscharp. For example, the distance taken through EVF is 1 meter but the RF is focus at +/- 1,2 (?) meter. The pictures with the EVF are sharp as it should be with Leica lenses, but out of focus with the EF. Body: Leica M-240, test lens was SL 50mm. All pictures taken through RF with all my lenses was unsharp, scron 28, 35, 90 and 90/4. After I return from my holidays I will send back my M240 to Leica for inspection. EVF is a great help! but needs better focus peaking and higher resolution. Maybe we will have it soon after Foto Kina (!?). Regards, Didi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
koray Posted May 30, 2014 Share #64 Posted May 30, 2014 I find EVF impractical for my Leica M lenses because it becomes a chore to wide open a lens, focus, and then to stop down. Ability to keep the lens set at preferred aperture while using RF is bliss. Because of the same issue I stopped using old manual focus lenses with Canon DSLRs years ago. Leica M as a system works intuitively for me. EVF calls for automatic aperture blade control and AF in my view. I love the EVF and AF lenses on my NEX-6, but not with my Leica M lenses. For that I have the M2 and Kodak Ektar. K. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted May 30, 2014 Share #65 Posted May 30, 2014 Dirk, Adan, thanks for bringing the human behind the camera back into focus (sorry). Trueism, focus accuracy alone does not produce photographs. Trying to separate this matter from the photographic system is impractical. Making a worthwhile photograph is so much related to seeing, that I for one just don't get the feel for the reality in front of me when I look on yet another interposed electronic screen (Sean Reid has a nice write-up comparing a TV to a window). … Cheers, Alexander Alexander - exactly this is why I feel so strong about the optical rangefinder system in the Leica M (we are always discussing Leica M, but actually I mean by that ANY well designed and manufactured rangefinder with integrated focussing and framing function - Leica just happened to really have refined their RF for the 35mm M camera). Although I have a technical background, involved with always developing newer and better technical solutions to clients challenges, I have learned that often enough it is not the technically more advanced appearing technology which is actually the best solution to a given problem. In recent years, especially with the conquering of electronic gadgets of our daily lives it appears, that often the actual solution to a problem or the actual underlying task seems to get lost entirely by the fascination for the gadgetry in front of us. We seem to get overly driven by those fascinating toys that we loose focus … There very well is a reason why we humans in 2014 still use a circular shaped steering wheel in our cars, as we do since more than 100 years. There is a reason why a pen in 2014 still looks very much like a pen we use since centuries. There is a reason, that although we have explored space, have developed nano technology and are experimenting with our very own genes - a toothbrush as simple a device it seems still looks very much the same like it did centuries ago. We are humans after all - and no, technology is not always the answer for the quest of finding the very best tool to do a job performed by a human being. This is true even more when any higher amount of creativity is asked from the individual, as in photography - we demand tools which primarily must meet one characteristic: We have to feel comfortable using them. It is not as easy as seeing matching numbers and technical specs superior in one solution to proof the inferiority of another one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted May 30, 2014 Share #66 Posted May 30, 2014 Dirk - What you wrote has such resonance. A mechanical interface, an analog system, or an elegantly designed physical device that is ergonomically matched to a human being's ranges of motions and physiology often is the better interface with what essentially makes us a conscious being - our nervous system. Mechanical-anolog systems very often are better than creating digital interfaces that always remain one step removed from us. First person interface and experience most always seems closer to what is our essence. Creativity seems to reside in this essence. These mechanical analog systems seem to be closer than the integrational interpretation (digital) which only exists as a description of the real world as a conceptual idea when sample size approaches infinity. Maybe, someday technology will get so close to the real world that it will not matter, but we certainly are not even close yet when it comes to... EVF. I resonate with a range finder OVF. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted May 31, 2014 Share #67 Posted May 31, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Anyway you can let us know which cameras have a fantastic working evf? It is a Canon 5D2 with Magic Lantern firmware v2.3. I use a Zacuto finder. Far from compact and ergonomic, but by far the best EVF experience one can have (even if the resolution is much lower than Sony). Details here: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/274855-m-rangefinder-vs-evf-focus-accuracy-3.html#post2704038 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted May 31, 2014 Share #68 Posted May 31, 2014 "Finally agree?" I never disagreed in the first place, did I? If I did, quote me. When you can't find the quote (you won't) - feel free to come back and correct your misattribution. Your post was: "If you've focused and captured better moments with an EVF, do let us see them..." So no, you didn't explicitly say it; but it's not hard to read between the lines. We are talking M-mount lenses, so by definition autofocus doesn't enter the discussion. Remember the original thread subject (28mm Summilux). Fair enough. Manually focused - an RF is faster than an EVF to focus Manually focused - an EVF is potentially more accurate than an RF, but slower, when trying to achieve that accuracy Not my case (with a proper EVF). Which means that I I am very good at using EVF, or suck at using the RF (especially in low light and flat subjects) ... in any case the RF shots I misfocus look great at web resolution. In any case, speed and accuracy are definitely correlated, and should evaluated together. I don't expect anyone to take my word for anything, which is why I presented photographic evidence of what I can do with my M9. You'll have to do the same if you want anyone to pay attention. Your photos are nice, but don't prove anything. The first two could have been shot with an iPhone. Even the other two, may be misfocused by a considerable amount without anyone noticing at web resolution. And, to be really mean, sorry, I haven't seen how many other shots you missed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted May 31, 2014 Share #69 Posted May 31, 2014 Originally Posted by tookaphotoof Anyway you can let us know which cameras have a fantastic working evf? It is a Canon 5D2 with Magic Lantern firmware v2.3. I use a Zacuto finder. This is a Zacuto finder. Is this what you are talking about? LOL You have been wasting our time by eluding to this?!!! You are back on my ignore list. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/227978-rf-vs-evf/?do=findComment&comment=2600926'>More sharing options...
tookaphotoof Posted May 31, 2014 Share #70 Posted May 31, 2014 CC, I'm always in for a healthy discussion and eager to try something new, but please... I've read somewhere the A7 it's evf s*cks, and you're coming up with a Canon dslr as an example? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted May 31, 2014 Share #71 Posted May 31, 2014 @ CheshireCat Between us, we've probably used up the forum's quota of dueling quote-boxes for the quarter, so I'll keep this simple®. I said "focused and captured...." - you said "speed and accuracy....should be evaluated together." That sounds like agreement, on at least one level. My case is that the split-image RF (or split-image prism, in my SLR days) is faster and more unambiguous than any other manual focus method. I snap the two images together; 1 or 0; binary ops. And the vast majority of the time, the accuracy just follows along. Sharp picture where I chose to focus. Two of my pictures could have been taken with an iPhone? In terms of focus, with the iPhone's massive DoF, perhaps. In terms of what counts - the structure and composition and scale relationships between foreground and background and this person and the other person with a 21mm lens - I don't think so. In terms of timing and gestures and expressions - I don't know, but have my doubts. But I am open to evidence (not testimony) to the contrary. You seem a bit fixated on the phrase "web resolution." If you want 100% pixel-peep crops, I can give you those as well. Just say the word. But in return, well, I am still longing to see your EVF pictures - at any resolution. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted May 31, 2014 Share #72 Posted May 31, 2014 RickLeica and Tookaphoto! Hey, hey hey! Let's not get snarky (we've had enough of that from - others). We've mostly gotten back on an even keel - so don't go rockin the boat again. Zacuto hoods (or Hoodman - something similar we sell at the store) have their function, just like Hassy chimney finders. http://static.photo.net/attachments/bboard/00V/00VJ4Q-202545584.jpg http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/223/d/1/The_Hasselblad_500CM_by_MattLauder.jpg I hope I'm not going to catch flack (or get "ignored") just because (in addition to my M9s) I'm using a Hassy with the PME90 prism. A kludge - but a useful kludge... http://gallery.photo.net/photo/12610832-lg.jpg Since the subject came up - we sell all the players in this discussion: Canon, Fuji, Sony (and don't forget l'il ol' Olympus, or Leica.) So I've worked with all of them (and helped photographers pick what is best for their needs). As far as INTERNAL EVFs go, the new Fuji XT-1 finder gets my vote for "best' - I was able to focus their 23mm f/1.4 lens on that finder without even resorting to the focus aids (pseudo-split, peaking, zoom). It's that smooth, grain-free and clear. It's still a screen, and thus not as fast nor as binary nor as 3D a "window" as the M - so its not for me. But I don't have any problem recommending it for those who want the SLR "style." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted May 31, 2014 Share #73 Posted May 31, 2014 RickLeica and Tookaphoto! Hey, hey hey! Let's not get snarky Adan, I read your most-excellent snarky post to The Cat that was deleted by pop before anyone could read it. So, your finger-wagging is kind of like the Grand Snark Master telling us to behave. Besides, this has to be the most fun BS string of posts I've read in a long time. I mean, did you get a load of my post #66? I thought that was about the living end of BS... no? Then, I found out that we were being spoofed by The Cat when he let the cat out of the bag and told us he was talking about a Hoodman-like EVF. You have to give him credit for punking us all along. Rick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted May 31, 2014 Share #74 Posted May 31, 2014 This is a Zacuto finder. Is this what you are talking about? LOL You have been wasting our time by eluding to this?!!! You are back on my ignore list. Ahem... I don't have the external framing, and if you attach a Summicron-R 35mm it's much better, but far from compact But I am afraid that in your ignore list there's also the fact that size does not matter with electronics and software. The same EVF (at higher resolution) can be implemented in cameras more compact than the M. Until then, yes, I will proudly carry that monster around. Keeps me in shape Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted May 31, 2014 Share #75 Posted May 31, 2014 Adan, I read your most-excellent snarky post to The Cat that was deleted by pop before anyone could read it. Hey guys, I want to see that post. Please PM ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
koray Posted May 31, 2014 Share #76 Posted May 31, 2014 It is a Canon 5D2 with Magic Lantern firmware v2.3. I use a Zacuto finder.Far from compact and ergonomic, but by far the best EVF experience one can have (even if the resolution is much lower than Sony). Details here: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/274855-m-rangefinder-vs-evf-focus-accuracy-3.html#post2704038 This is ridiculous... K. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tookaphotoof Posted May 31, 2014 Share #77 Posted May 31, 2014 Adan, if you think I'm trying to act like a troll read again. I asked a serious question and gave a serious reply afterwards without any harm intended. Still waiting for a couple of good evf cameras so I can test it in real life. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted May 31, 2014 Share #78 Posted May 31, 2014 Adan, I read your most-excellent snarky post to The Cat that was deleted by pop before anyone could read it. It WAS deleted. Let's see how things play out..... Tookaphotoof - I beg pardon! No you are not a troll. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted May 31, 2014 Share #79 Posted May 31, 2014 Adan, if you think I'm trying to act like a troll read again. I asked a serious question and gave a serious reply afterwards without any harm intended. I think we both got hit by friendly fire . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 1, 2014 Share #80 Posted June 1, 2014 There very well is a reason why we humans in 2014 still use a circular shaped steering wheel in our cars, as we do since more than 100 years. . Do we? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/227978-rf-vs-evf/?do=findComment&comment=2601515'>More sharing options...
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