RF vs EVF

[cirke]

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Rick please, not again

 

People who used RF for decades are convinced of the same. And considering how bad the EVF and firmware have been implemented on the M, many who haven't tried anything better will obviously agree.

 

The fact is that the RF is old technology. It only works in the center of the frame, only if perfectly calibrated with the lens, and only if the subject is at the proper distance.

 

As a matter of fact, a good EVF+firmware can magnify in realtime what the sensor actually captures near the focus point (set anywhere in the frame); it works with any lens, at any subject distance, in low light conditions, and as an added bonus gives you a real preview of framing and DoF.

 

The bottom line is that the RF is fun to use and one may subjectively like it way better than AF or EVF. But technically it is NOT the fastest and more accurate way to focus a camera.

I agree 100%

and today Cartier Bresson will never use a M but a Sony A7

RF are things from the past , totally useless

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[DigitalHeMan]

RF are things from the past , totally useless

 

 

So why did you spend so much money investing in the Leica rangefinder system???!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[cirke]

So why did you spend so much money investing in the Leica rangefinder system???!

I spend my money for the only existing small 24X36 system with very good lenses, I shall change as soon as possible if Leica doesn't go on

as will do many users

[tookaphotoof]

Eric, why would Henry use the A7 if Leica is the only small system with good lenses?

 

On a serious note, there are enough small systems with good lenses.

Yes I can see every little hair, even on the face when I look at a portret at 100% size on the monitor. Fact is, I never print that large and I don't have a 40" monitor.

 

If you're not happy with the rangefinder, sell it all and get yourself something like the a6000 or a7 with a couple of Zeiss lenses. That's what Bresson would have done today, if he was still among us.

 

 

 

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[lct]

I agree 100%

and today Cartier Bresson will never use a M but a Sony A7

RF are things from the past , totally useless

HCB must be turning over in his grave. Do you imagine him with those big lenses and this noisy body really? I seem to recall him using reflex cameras from time to time but he did prefer rangefinders by far, as he said "the" Leica. As for being useless, frankly, have you ever used an EVF in bright light? Can you explain how you're doing to catch the decisive moment this way?

Nothing personal but i feel a bit sad when i read such comparisons as i realise that more and more photographers don't seem to have an idea of what the specificity of rangefinders can be. It is not a matter of technology more or less up-to-date or "useless" as you say. It is a matter of viewing the scene outside the lens instead of depending upon it. Sorry for the OT (and the ranting).

[cirke]

HCB must be turning over in his grave. Do you imagine him with those big lenses and this noisy body really? I seem to recall him using reflex cameras from time to time but he did prefer rangefinders by far, as he said "the" Leica. As for being useless, frankly, have you ever used an EVF in bright light? Can you explain how you're doing to catch the decisive moment this way?

Nothing personal but i feel a bit sad when i read such comparisons as i realise that more and more photographers don't seem to have an idea of what the specificity of rangefinders can be. It is not a matter of technology more or less up-to-date or "useless" as you say. It is a matter of viewing the scene outside the lens instead of depending upon it. Sorry for the OT (and the ranting).

you can catch the decisive moment with an iphone

 

of course I use the EVF in bright Light and it works perfectly, I use only EVF

[cirke]

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If you're not happy with the rangefinder, sell it all and get yourself something like the a6000 or a7 with a couple of Zeiss lenses. That's what Bresson would have done today, if he was still among us.

the 55mm Zeiss weight 1kg .. no thanks

 

I have sold my Hasseblad for Leica because I like the quality of the Leica lenses in such a small size, on the M 240 I have never used the RF, I can wait 2 or 4 years , I shall not buy another system only for the size

or maybe the Leica T if it comes with pancakes

[lct]

...of course I use the EVF in bright Light and it works perfectly...

I have two EVFs for my M240 and one in my Fuji X-E2. They are all useless when the scene is too contrasty.

[cirke]

I have two EVFs for my M240 and one in my Fuji X-E2. They are all useless when the scene is too contrasty.

I have never had problem in full sun it works perfectly

[tookaphotoof]

No problem if it works for you. Personally I find the evf of the xe1 and the m240 sluggish if it's the right word. It's no problem on the xe1 however as it has autofocus and I could see myself getting used to evf with autofocus if I didn't have any other choice.

With the 28mm on my M trying to shoot street photography It's very hard to focus spot on unless I zone focus.

[Rick]

Rick please, not again

 

People who used RF for decades are convinced of the same. And considering how bad the EVF and firmware have been implemented on the M, many who haven't tried anything better will obviously agree.

 

The fact is that the RF is old technology. It only works in the center of the frame, only if perfectly calibrated with the lens, and only if the subject is at the proper distance.

 

As a matter of fact, a good EVF+firmware can magnify in realtime what the sensor actually captures near the focus point (set anywhere in the frame); it works with any lens, at any subject distance, in low light conditions, and as an added bonus gives you a real preview of framing and DoF.

 

The bottom line is that the RF is fun to use and one may subjectively like it way better than AF or EVF. But technically it is NOT the fastest and more accurate way to focus a camera.

 

Ok, if you say so.

[adan]

The fact is that the RF is old technology. It only works in the center of the frame, only if perfectly calibrated with the lens, and only if the subject is at the proper distance.

 

As a matter of fact, a good EVF+firmware can magnify in realtime what the sensor actually captures near the focus point (set anywhere in the frame); it works with any lens, at any subject distance, in low light conditions, and as an added bonus gives you a real preview of framing and DoF.

 

The bottom line is that the RF is fun to use and one may subjectively like it way better than AF or EVF. But technically it is NOT the fastest and more accurate way to focus a camera.

 

Boyo, the attached were all shot and focused on the fly with the oh-so-out-of-date M9 rangefinder. If you've focused and captured better moments with an EVF, do let us see them...

 

BTW - "It only works...if perfectly calibrated with the lens" amounts to "it only works if its working."

 

Well duh! Does an EVF work if it's not working?

 

"a good EVF+firmware can magnify in realtime"

 

You must use a very loose definition of "realtime". An EVF is ALWAYS lagging what's in front of the lens by 10s of milliseconds.

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[adan]

you can catch the decisive moment with an iphone

 

of course I use the EVF in bright Light and it works perfectly, I use only EVF

 

Don't tell us - SHOW us!

[CheshireCat]

Boyo, the attached were all shot and focused on the fly with the oh-so-out-of-date M9 rangefinder.

 

Old man, a couple of shots at 1990 web resolution don't really prove your point.

Let's move the EVF vs RF discussion here:

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/274855-m-rangefinder-vs-evf-focus-accuracy.html

 

P.S. It would be great if admins could kindly move relevant messages there.

[cirke]

Don't tell us - SHOW us!

look at instagram photographers you will see very good photos from all over the world ... in every kind of lights

 

An EVF is ALWAYS lagging what's in front of the lens by 10s of milliseconds.

10 milliseconds ? you are so fast ! So nobody can catch the decisive moment with an EVF but you with RF ?

 

lets come back to the more interesting subject of the thread ... that good 28 summilux

[Rick]

look at instagram photographers you will see very good photos from all over the world ... in every kind of lights

 

10 milliseconds ? you are so fast ! So nobody can catch the decisive moment with an EVF but you with RF ?

 

lets come back to the more interesting subject of the thread ... that good 28 summilux

 

Eric, you are the one that took this thread off topic. Odd that you now want to run back to on-topic just because, Adan makes good counter points with photo examples and you provide nothing of your own to support your view. And, the fact is that the shutter lag of the Leica LV does often make for the loss of the decisive moment, even though you are not able appreciate this problem with EVF.

 

The RF is a much faster and more accurate way to focus RF lenses under most conditions and I really hope Leica continues with this as the central feature of the M.

 

By the way, of course I want a better EVF and I have been very critical of the present implementation. Please read my posts elsewhere before you try and call me a fanboy or reverse-troll.

[cirke]

The RF is a much faster and more accurate way to focus RF lenses under most conditions and I really hope Leica continues with this as the central feature of the M..

no it is no and never will be a more accurate way to focus

there never will be a better way to focus than to zoom 10 times, and Leica is going the right way trying to keep RF users and making at the same time a modern camera

Adan makes good counter points with photo examples and you provide nothing of your own to support your view

there are millions of photo on internet with iphone , auto-focus , EVF ... catching the right moment, no needs to add anything

 

By the way, of course I want a better EVF

good ! me too

 

... but you are right this is off topic

[Rick]

no it is no and never will be a more accurate way to focus

there never will be a better way to focus than to zoom 10 times

 

Eric, this is soooo untrue. I have used the 10x zoom and it can not come close to the RF in most cases for focusing RF lenses. These standard focal length lenses focus faster and more accurately with the range finder. The focus peeking is too wide to be accurate the way it is implemented. You could use the EVF as a ground glass type of focusing, but why not just use the OVF of the M to focus using a ground glass method?

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[dpattinson]

no it is no and never will be a more accurate way to focus

there never will be a better way to focus than to zoom 10 times, and Leica is going the right way trying to keep RF users and making at the same time a modern camera

there are millions of photo on internet with iphone , auto-focus , EVF ... catching the right moment, no needs to add anything

 

good ! me too

 

... but you are right this is off topic

 

Most of the time, when I see two people arguing about 'best' - it comes down to mistaking 'best for what I like to do' with 'absolute best'.

 

The most accurate way to manually focus my D800E is to put it on a tripod, switch to live view, and zoom in on the relevant point in the image... but there is no way that works for the kind of photography I like to do. So while it might be most accurate, it certainly isn't 'best for what I like to do'. (Unless I'm shooting product - in which case it's great).

 

Similarly, with my M cameras, I can't imagine wanting to zoom in on a part of the image in an EVF to focus - because I would lose the main benefit of using the M which for me is seeing outside the frame and rapidly making micro-composition adjustments. The RF is perfect for that - because frankly I don't care about a perfectly focused shot of a spot where there used to be something interesting going on - I'm much happier with a slightly off-focus shot of what I wanted to capture.

 

If I worked in a different way, I might greatly prefer a zooming EVF - but for now it's certainly not 'best' for me at least.

[menos I M6]

Just for E.:

 

f0.95 runners coming at me (no they didn't stop and pose, so I could do EVF zoom gymnastics or shoot away at 11fps):

 

The Bund at f0.95 | runners group by teknopunk.com, on Flickr

 

 

f0.95 he did this exactly once for a split second - think to time this through a non optical finder?

Sorry sir, could you please flex that muscle again - my electronic viewfinder zoom patch is misplaced, gotta move that over the right place in the flickerydoo finder …

 

The Bund at f0.95 | portrait - muscle by teknopunk.com, on Flickr

 

 

85mm f1.5: old man walking through dark wet market in Shanghai

 

old man: [walking down the market]

 

EVF guy: Excuse me Sir, could you please freeze for a moment, I still have that lady from the other frame I shot earlier in my viewfinder, the buffer is kinda slow and it's flickering badly, … could you just freeze please … please

 

old man: [keeps walking down the market]

 

Shanghai | wet market - old man by teknopunk.com, on Flickr

 

 

50mm f1

 

He did not even realise, I took this shot, when he shot an LMP racer coming through the last chicane onto the start finish straight at the 24h of Le Mans - no EVF here.

 

taking a picture - 2011 Le Mans 24h by teknopunk.com, on Flickr

 

 

There is nothing faster and more precise to shoot really fast lenses, than with a properly maintained rangefinder system.

Ever tried to focus a SLR with a f1 lens?

Ever shot a living and moving subject with such a lens on a EVF camera on a regular basis and produce keepers - no shots of pets, flowers, landscapes do not count.

 

The day Leica stops selling rangefinder cameras I stop buying Leica cameras.

When I started shooting with a M6 some years ago, it was difficult to nail focus.

Only after some time (years) could I pick up a really fast lens and just shoot (even lenses, still today many believe are impossible to focus on a Leica).

 

Maybe RF cameras are not for you (so it seems). That's fine by the way, absolutely nothing wrong with that, but why the sour tone on a Leica rangefinder forum, trumpeting how EVFs are the solution to global warming and terrible your new Leica M240 is? That point simply doesn't come across well.

 

Rangefinder cameras have a place in the market - they always have. Some like them and pay ridiculous prices for them. I like them.