M8 -- Shutter Noise FOLLOW-UP

[klarmann]

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Thank you all for your well-stated replies, from which -- if the noise is in the cocking of the shutter, then, clearly, like with the earlier "M" series (after Solms deals with the fundamental issue), manually cocking the shutter should do it.

And, when one wants to shoot in bursts, so, OK, just the same as with any auto-cocking shutter, there will be some "little" noise. But, really, all that gobbledegook about where the noise is least, has absolutely no place in any camera at this price range.

At least this is what I believe... and, again, many thanks to all.

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[jaapv]

I don't think it has to do with price range.I don't see this "issue"coming up in a Nikon orf Canon forum. We Leica buffs are a whispery lot...

[LJL]

I don't think it has to do with price range.I don't see this "issue"coming up in a Nikon orf Canon forum. We Leica buffs are a whispery lot...

 

Jaap,

This is not exactly true....about it not coming up on the Canon and Nikon forums. For a long time, one of the major complaints against the Canon 1-series cameras by quite a few folks, was the horrendous shutter klunk. A real problem in quiet environs, like churches and even press corps photo venues at the House and Senate hearings. The great wish was to have the quiet of the Leica rangefinders. I found myself wanting this same quiet many times under various shooting circumstances. Now, with the M8, I tend to believe (righhtly or wrongly) that the shutter noise is a lot less than my Canon 1-series gear. However, the M8 shutter noise, or more specifically the cocking rewind noise, is a lot louder to my ears than the film M cameras, but a lot less noisy than the Canons. The Nikons seem a bit quieter than the Canons, but still somewhat noisy. Interestingly, many wedding photogs went to using the 10/20/30D cameras from Canon, despite the severe 1.6x crop, in order to get something less obvious in quiet settings.

 

The only really silent cameras are the digicams that only have the electronic on/off of the sensor for capture. I still pull out my old Nikon Coolpix 5700 on occasion when I want total quiet in shooting.

 

The M8 is louder than the film versions, but not all that bad. I actually think the klunk from the metal shutter is more disturbing than the older cloth shutters, but it is what it is at this point.

 

LJ

[wparsonsgisnet]

When I am shooting in the same theater, my M8 is m-u-c-h more quiet than the Canon something-or-other that other guys are using.

 

However, when the bride demands it, I have to revert to the D2 -- and subject myself to the 6-second write-wait.

 

This M8 is NOT quiet. C'mon Leica: you guys are the geniuses, fix it.

[LJL]

Bill,

Canons also have that "silent mode". It is essentially a single shot mode where the shutter is tripped, and the rewind/mirror return takes place when one releases the shutter button. It works, but it is a total pain to use, and one has to pull the camera down to some muffled hide to release the shutter.

 

I agree that the M8 is not quiet, but it is also not quite as obvious and almost every other camera out there, except digicams that have no shutter or mirror to deal with at all. I would love the sound of the M film cameras in the M8, including the smoother shutter depress, so in that sense, I completely agree that Leica could do better on the sound side of things.

 

LJ

[wparsonsgisnet]

... I would love the sound of the M film cameras in the M8, including the smoother shutter depress...

 

LJ, I want much, much more than that. I want NO shutter sound -- just like in the D2.

 

Leica has all the geniuses in the world, resident in Solms. Let's have a different sensor that captures the image when directed to do so -- with NO shutter.

 

It works in the D2. Let's have one that works in the M8.

 

Canon doesn't give a damn because the complicated process of mirror-shutter-wind is so noisy that it's hard to fix. We only have one operation to fix: the shutter.

 

C'mon Leica; show us your stuff!

[LJL]

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Leica has all the geniuses in the world, resident in Solms. Let's have a different sensor that captures the image when directed to do so -- with NO shutter.

 

O.K., but then how do you shoot things with a traditional shutter drag with flash for first or second curtain stuff?

 

Not saying "no shutter" would not be nice (Hmmm....too many negatives in that, huh?), but I would be happy with a nice, crisp but soft, shutter trip....it helps me know when I got or missed the shot

 

LJ

[wparsonsgisnet]

O.K., but then how do you shoot things with a traditional shutter drag with flash for first or second curtain stuff?

 

Not saying "no shutter" would not be nice (Hmmm....too many negatives in that, huh?), but I would be happy with a nice, crisp but soft, shutter trip....it helps me know when I got or missed the shot

 

LJ

 

Well, I can keep this body (referring to the M8, of course) for shutter dragging, and I can use the forthcoming M8b -- which has absolutely NO shutter noice, just like the D2 -- for the stuff I like to shoot: dance in performance.

 

Dreams are the stuff that the future is made of.

[AlanG]

O.K., but then how do you shoot things with a traditional shutter drag with flash for first or second curtain stuff?

 

Not saying "no shutter" would not be nice (Hmmm....too many negatives in that, huh?), but I would be happy with a nice, crisp but soft, shutter trip....it helps me know when I got or missed the shot

 

LJ

 

The flash could be made to fire at the beginning or at the end of the exposure even if there is no shutter.

[carstenw]

Well, let me just illogically add my 2 cents: I like the shutter sound. I do prefer the M6 shutter sound to the M8 shutter sound, but I would feel lost with nothing.

[Eoin]

No shutter! next you'll be asking for Bio exposure control along with who knows what else. And after all that someone will say "ahh, sure it doesn't feel like the leicas of old". Everything in life is a compromise, some were made by leica to have a digital M, Yea there are some aspects that can be improved upon perhaps in the next generation digi M, but as for the current M, I'm not complaining any more, I'm gob smacked at the results it produces and love it for what it is, warts 'n' all.

[bradreiman]

Eoin-thanks for taking the words out of my mouth. Fully agree...B

[lars_bergquist]

I want every one of you to do the following simple experiment:

 

Set the self-timer to 12 sec. Place the M8 on a soft substrate, facing you at a distance of about one meter, and press the shutter button.

 

Listen.

 

What you will hear is *emphatically* not the fairly loud, slightly metallic sound that you hear with your right ear 90 mm behind the camera. It is a very discreet sound that nobody will be alarmed at hearing, or in fact few will hear at all, in any normal environment save probably a Trappist convent. It is much less noticeable than the 'slap-click-clack-rattle' of a SLR. I would not hesitate to use the M8 at a chamber music concert. It will not be heard against the normal background of foot-shufflers, arse-movers, coughers and farters.

 

Putting the camera on a hard and perhaps thin substrate which can act as a soundboard will of course produce a louder sound. But handheld, it is not more objectionable than a classical Compur shutter.

 

The old man from he Age of the Compur

[wparsonsgisnet]

Well, let me just illogically add my 2 cents: I like the shutter sound. I do prefer the M6 shutter sound to the M8 shutter sound, but I would feel lost with nothing.

 

The D2 has an option for just this. Mine is set to No Sound. What a great advance this would be. Just imagine how many fewer times the paparazzi would get beaned with a can if the stars couldn't hear a shutter.

 

What the hell was he doing carrying around a can of beans? Do you think movie stars cook, much less shop?

 

Perhaps it was a premeditated beaning.

 

Bean me up Scotty, I shutter at these surroundings.

[klarmann]

When I started this discussion about shutter noise, I was interested in receiving replies with the emphasis on persuading Solms to take corrective action in response well-reasoned arguments -- and for those of you have been helpful in that regard I am thankful.

For the others who would criticize our efforts, it would appear that they misunderstand what I am trying to achieve -- it is not, repeat, not how noisy the shutter is with respect to other cameras, it is that it is noisier than previous models, and, for a $5,000 camera excuses are meaningless.

For example, when designing a new version of an existing product, one is entitled to expect that improvements will be made -- not that its main virtue will be disregarded to accommodate the "improvement", as has happened with the M8.

Remember, it was only a few years ago that Leica said that you can't have a digital "M", and now here we are. Why, I bet that they can even do a full frame digital. True, perhaps the camera body might have to be a tad deeper, but I doubt anyone would object.

Back to basics -- if Leica reverted to the classic cocking of the shutter, as recommended by one of the respondents, might Leica also go back to the cloth shutter, with motor driven mode for sequential sohts? I think that this is all no more complicated than that, and therefore would enlist the support of those in agreement.

[gravastar]

...................................Back to basics -- if Leica reverted to the classic cocking of the shutter, as recommended by one of the respondents, might Leica also go back to the cloth shutter, with motor driven mode for sequential sohts? I think that this is all no more complicated than that, and therefore would enlist the support of those in agreement.

I believe Leica have already said that there was no room available for the rollers, blinds and brakes of a cloth shutter. If you look at the shutter in Mark's pictures it takes up very little room other than the sensor aperture.

 

Bob.

[bradreiman]

i think a manual cocking shutter would be ridiculous. i also think the cloth shutter is a thing of the past as regards digital. i also think the m8 is really quiet, and i use mine all the time. i have never heard a comment regarding the sound of the m8 shutter. i shoot in quiet places all the time. i would predict that you can petition leica all you want but you are wasting your/their time and nothing will change. good luck in your attempts tho.

[Guest sirvine]

"it is not, repeat, not how noisy the shutter is with respect to other cameras, it is that it is noisier than previous models, and, for a $5,000 camera excuses are meaningless."

 

This is a digital extension of "previous models" with a host of altogether new design challenges. There is an alternative available, if you want it--Epson R-D1s with manual shutter mechanism and quieter than M8, but also inferior in other ways. Leica has made the decision to go with a modern shutter mechanism, quite an elegant one, and you've always got the option to spend your money on a film M.

 

As I've said before on this board, $5000 is not the price of perfection--far from it. I can think of five thousand other cost factors in this camera which Leica is recouping on its R&D outlay other than the decibels from shutter winding.

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[nryn]

For the others who would criticize our efforts, it would appear that they misunderstand what I am trying to achieve -- it is not, repeat, not how noisy the shutter is with respect to other cameras, it is that it is noisier than previous models, and, for a $5,000 camera excuses are meaningless.

 

Though I understand the specific issue of shutter noise may cause you particular concern, I would urge you not to try and persuade those of us for which it is not a concern that we've somehow "settled" at the cost of $5,000.

 

I apologize for raising this issue on this particular thread, but I'm getting a little tired of the cost of this camera being used over and over again as a justification for complaining that not every single buyer's fancy has been met. It's not as if Leica forcibly took $5,000 from anyone. If it's too loud, there are alternatives, some of which cost less. May I ask at what cost do excuses mean something?

 

For example, when designing a new version of an existing product, one is entitled to expect that improvements will be made -- not that its main virtue will be disregarded to accommodate the "improvement", as has happened with the M8.

 

For me, anyway, an M's shutter noise is by no means its "main virtue". It's a virtue for some, of course, but great optics, small footprint, and the rangefinder photography experience are far more important to me than shutter noise. Certain tradeoffs were made with the M8, sure, as they are with just about every product. If what you're really saying is that you're not happy with some of these tradeoffs, I can understand that. So why spend $5,000 if your main criteria for a camera isn't met?

 

edited to add: sirvine beat me too it, and far more diplomatically at that.

[Eoin]

It is a mistake in my mind to think of the M8 as the next progression of the film M's. It is infact the first of the digital M's in a form somewhat in keeping with the M range.

 

What baffles me even more is that some people don't seem to have fully evaluated their purchase of an M8 before handing over their hard earned cash before deciding if the camera fully meets their criteria. It's one thing to suggest improvements for a future version but it's something else suggest the price of a camera should dictate what is a design feature or flaw is.

 

The electro mechanical shutter seems to have been required by technical requirements and constraints of the design, I'm not saying there was a better way to do this, but rather saying this is a M8 you either accept it for what it is and can do. Or you wait in hope for the release of your nirvana (not any time soon).