Downsizing?!?

[!Nomad64]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Many thanks again, folks. Your support is warm and encouraging.

 

@ colonel: I agree with you on almost all points. Judging from the replies I got this far, it seems that going for the XV might be the safest and most logical solution for me. As said, my only perplexities are in terms of size. Also recently I discovered that the XV might be sometimes affected by autofocusing errors in particular conditions and that if not properly treated with Adobe LR the RAW files shot at the widest end show considerable distortion.

This might be a potential issue for me as I'm a Linux user and process my RAWs with Rawtherapee or GIMP when required. Having never dealt with distortion correction because the M9 files never needed to, I'm afraid this might lead to complications.

 

@ carduelis: thanks for providing an alternative, I have to do better homework in this respect

 

@ janki: thanks for the input, but a) I can't take into consideration something that doesn't yet exist and if I understood well, the T will be between the X and M series, which means more expensive than any X camera, which makes it less attractive. Although weight and bulk are important, I don't want to sell a kidney...

 

@ archiver: you made your point. Especially considering that the LX shares the same hardware with the DL6 and is much cheaper. As said, I must do some further homework in respect of the GR.

 

@ DrPix: I bet you're darn right!

 

Thank you very much you all

Bruno

[colonel]

@ colonel: I agree with you on almost all points. Judging from the replies I got this far, it seems that going for the XV might be the safest and most logical solution for me. As said, my only perplexities are in terms of size. Also recently I discovered that the XV might be sometimes affected by autofocusing errors in particular conditions and that if not properly treated with Adobe LR the RAW files shot at the widest end show considerable distortion.

This might be a potential issue for me as I'm a Linux user and process my RAWs with Rawtherapee or GIMP when required. Having never dealt with distortion correction because the M9 files never needed to, I'm afraid this might lead to complications.

 

Thank you very much you all

Bruno

 

Some more info on those points

 

There is no doubt that the AF is not particularly fast. For reference, I find it marginally faster then the Sony RX1 and marginally worse then the Fuji X-E1.

 

However I find it very accurate. It does, very occasionally, not find focus. Again it does this less then the RX1 and I have to say that I have not used a CDAF camera, including the supposedly infallible E-M1, which does not hunt occasionally.

 

In terms of distortion, Lightroom corrects automatically on loading, so its not something I suffer from.

Note that distortion correction is built into the camera for JPGs.

 

I am not an expert on lens design, but from what I have read there is a trade off in design between size, weight, sharpness, CA, contrast and many other things. The modern trend seems to be make distortion the sacrificial lamb in the equation for zooms due to the power of modern CPUs and software where this (as long as the distortion is relatively uniform) is easily correctable subject to some loss of detail at the extreme corners. Interestingly the biggest offender here is Sony for the E-Mount. Its zooms have been described as having "apocalyptic" distortion, including the excellent new 24-70mm f4 FE lens, and its also very prevalent in the latest Nikon and Canon designs.

 

In summary I regard neither of these issues, AF (if you don't want the fastest) and distortion, as important regarding my choice of the XV.

 

To wrap up with my improve list, to give you an idea of where I think compromises have been made which could be corrected in software or the next version:

 

1. 1/2000 top speed. 1/4000 would be nice (I believe a limitation of the leaf shutter - worth it IMHO for the silence)

2. No AEL button (ok to use manual speed control but not as fast) - could easily be corrected in software, for example by making the "down" position of the 4-way switch programmable, as it is not currently used

3. More flexibility on minimum shutter speed for auto-ISO

4. Picture taken is displayed on rear LCD for a few seconds, even if "review" is off - this is a bug I think

 

The outstanding features of the XV IMHO are:

5. General feel and build

6. Non-extending lens

7. Manual focus system is terrific

8. Colours and definition

9. Contrast and sharpness of lens across the range (although 1 stop down does make a difference, it still starts out well)

10. Ergonomics, e.g. Dials are lovely and in the right place, there is a raised edge next to the thumb wheel which makes it easy to hold, like a micro-thumbs up, etc.

11. Silent shutter

 

There are many interesting reviews, my favorites are:

Irwin Putts

Luminous Landscapes

Imaging Resource

Petapixel

ephotozine

 

Best rgds

Edited April 10, 2014 by colonel

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[!Nomad64]

Colonel, thank you very much for the thorough further infos, sir!

 

Bruno

[Schluet]

I went through the same downsizing metamorphosis, unloading all of my Canon gear. I started with an X1 and then added an X Vario for versatility. I've now replaced the X1 with an RX1 and feel that I'm closer to travel nirvana than ever. I don't like fiddling with changing lenses, and these two cameras complement each other quite well during long journeys. The X Vario is great for walking around tduring the day, and I grab the RX1 when heading out in the evening. In the end, the X1 just couldn't deliver in low light for me, even though the images in daylight were stunning. Now, I have the X Vario for that, and some reach. You can even throw both cameras in a Domke satchel at the same time and not miss a beat!

 

I know you had mentioned that you don't like the Sony menus, but I would give the RX1 a closer look. It's quite an awesome full-frame machine, and very easy to use.

 

Schluet

[Archiver]

Even though I do not own a Sony RX1, I understand the combination of RX1 and X Vario. The cameras would work well together in terms of imaging and different situations. I've often contemplated using a RX1 for night shooting, at times that I want a lighter/smaller/less expensive alternative to the M9.

 

Others have said that the high resolution of the RX1 allows for a kind of zoom by cropping, which has its place. The Ricoh GR also does this, offering 35mm and 47mm crops. The crop modes are surprisingly fun and useful, although the RX1 crop modes unfortunately do not write to raw as the GR does.

Edited April 30, 2014 by Archiver

[NZDavid]

An interesting conundrum! !Nomad64, you may well miss the M9 and lenses if you sell so I'd recommend if possible borrowing and using an alternative camera first. But of course, cameras really are just tools and if you find one that suits your needs better, then go for it!

 

I have used M film cameras, M9, X1, and D-Lux 5. I recently had a brief play with an X-Vario at Singapore's Changi Airport and was most impressed.

 

Here are some thoughts:

 

M9: Ultimate quality, especially for large prints. Rangefinder focusing. Do you prefer rangefinder or autofocus plus focus peaking? Optical viewfinder. Clear manual controls. Wonderful lenses. Ability to throw background out of focus with faster lenses. However: bigger and heavier than compacts. You could take just one lens (I use the 35 a lot) and one or two others as back-up (24 and 50).

 

X-Vario: Excellent picture quality by all accounts. Clear manual controls much like the M. Liveview or ability to mount both electronic and optical viewfinders. Really not that big and bulky (to me) compared with other cameras, and you get four focal lengths (28, 35, 50, and 70). Lighter than an M. However: slower lenses, less good in dim light (but good quality at high ISO), limited ability to throw background out of focus, have to accept auto focusing or focus peaking.

 

X2: As above except for fixed lens. It's faster, camera is more compact, but it is limited. Can you mange with one focal length?

 

D-Lux 6: I have the D-Lux 5, which is similar but the D-Lux 6 has an incredibly versatile f/1.4-2.3 24-90 lens. Ultra compact. Very good image quality but not up to larger sensors (noticeable mainly at higher print sizes; still absolutely fine for publication). Very wide depth of field so hard to throw background out of focus, even wide open. Best used in P, lacks manual controls of X and M cameras.

 

T: Brand new, versatile and compact. Depends if you like touchscreen controls (not my thing).

 

The X-Vario looks tempting. Hope this helps.

[spylaw4]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Isn't it amazing how the events of 22 days can change things since my earlier posting in this thread?

 

We now have the T and I am lucky enough to have had the opportunity to actually borrow and use one of the demonstrators.

 

I am impressed.

 

Enough to put my marker down for one, certainly with the kit zoom even though I am tempted by the 23/2. But as I have the X2 which I will retain (it's still one of my favourite cameras), two 35mm equivalents might be overkill, perhaps? The proposed new zooms are also tempting, and it will be interesting to see what new primes emerge from Wetzlar.

 

There has been enough said about the T in the various reviews but my initial impressions are that those coming from a more usual Leica background might find that it takes a little more getting used to due to the touchscreen operation, which is remarkably flexible for customising to suit the user. One can also lock the screen - a very good move on Leica's part.

 

The firmware is apparently not yet finalised and I look forward to the production version and some needed improvements. Also a profile in LR.

 

The remaining question is what will I do with the X Vario? (That's a rhetorical question BTW).

[colonel]

The RX1 is one of the best cameras ever made. The combination with xvario is perfect. Both can be replaced with the T, but the IQ is not in the RX1 league, saying that you get the zoom and convenience of one camera. It's up to you. Life is choices

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[!Nomad64]

Hello folks and many thanks again for keeping up your support.

 

@ NZDavid: I completely agree with your points one by one. For sure I shouldn't trade in the M9 against a new ca,era such as the T. It's a move I might sorely regret later.

 

@ spylaw: I know. I initially discarded the T but after fiddling with one I fell in love. Now I'm progressively cooling down as I put my hands on some DNGs as they become available and I'm not very pleased with what I get. The camera produces excellent jpegs ooc but finetuning the DNGs is too much of a hard work and I find that chromatic aberration is recurring quite too often.

Furthermore the differences with M9's DNGs aren't huge and not discernible at printing and web posting levels but at pixel peeping level they are there to be seen.

 

@ colonel: the RX1 makes an interesting proposition, but it's its commands (and the price) that do not convince me. With the XV it's all there, aperture and speed dials on the body, focus and zoom ring on the barrel. Clean, simple and uncluttered.

 

M9 is obviously my first choice. I definitely prefer manual focusing over autofocus as this latter tends to focus where his engineer meant it to rather than where I need it to. Optical viewfinder is another plus. Clean, clear, visible in dim light and uncluttered. The only shortcoming is that as I shoot mainly with wide angles (24 & 35) I always need an external finder plus a bubble level to keep the camera straight (I have difficulties to do that through the built-in finder).

Back screens and EVF provide grids and 100% precise coverage, which doesn't happen with the approximate framing of the M9.

I already go with exactly the 3 lenses mentioned by NZDavid, but as said, sometimes it's just too much. The M9 with the Elmarit 24 alone is in the region of 1300 g whereas the XV as bulky as is weighs the half. The X2 weighs half an XV and can easily slip in a pocket.

I think I could live with the X2 single focal length but I know that sometimes I'd need the extra reach or going wider, hence the original idea of pairing it with a DL6/LX7 with an obvious decrease of files quality. Problem is that as I couldn't find any RAW files from this latter I'm not in condition to see myself if it suits me or not. So as of now I still haven't decided and then there came the T just to complicate the things. However I think it's extremely sexy and that I could learn to drive the new UI, actually I feel that the XV commands are more traditional, rational and easier to operate.

 

Cheers,

Bruno

Edited April 30, 2014 by !Nomad64

[colonel]

Bruno,

 

I agree with all your points

 

I was a prime shooter for years, usually only going out with one lens at a time.

 

The X-Vario was a bit of a revelation, introducing me to how useful a zoom could be (duh!).

 

35mm is my favourite FL. I could be out with an RX1R, a Df+35mm or a M240+35mm (don't ask why I have so many 35mm solutions, its probably for a Psychologist to answer ) and 90% of the time I would be getting perfect pictures, then 10% I would be frustated that I couldn't zoom in.

 

The XV looses some of the IQ of the above solutions (although from a web picture perspective you won't notice this) but gives you a wonderful zoom range. Then the occasional frustration with the XV when walking into a dark cave is "I wish I had an f1.8".

 

There are other solutions, for example I am told the Sigma 18-35mm f1.8 is fantastic and could be teamed with a D7100. However this is a pretty heavy solution so has all the bulk issues we are trying to avoid.

 

Unfortunately, there is no one solution. The XV, now coming down in price, is a perfect one camera walk-about most of the time.

 

There are other intangiables. I think the silent shutter is a significant advantage for me, which is why I rate the RX1, XV, RX10 and G1X Mark II so highly and mark the new T down a notch (as well as it's love it/hate it interface). And incidently why I mark down the Sony A6000, which apart from the shutter noise (not that bad,just not silent), which is quite frankly the star of APS-C at the moment IMHO

 

At the end of the day, all these technologies are so good its the photographer who makes the pictures and just has to choose handling differences

 

Good luck with your final decision!

 

Try not to be like me and buy everything

Edited April 30, 2014 by colonel

[Guest]

Greetings,

 

The XV is an EXCEPTIONAL camera. It is built like a tank and is quite easy to toss in a backpack (with the neoprene or other case) and to handle.

 

I had the D-Lux (like you, prioritizing size over ultimate IQ), but the dynamic range and IQ just didn't cut it for me in all circumstances (I say this in hindsight now that I have an XV).

 

If you make large prints, or if your outdoor activity takes you through scenes with broad lighting differences, like sunsets or forests with shadows, I would strongly suggest you consider the XV. The XV has such great dynamic range - much, much better than D-Lux.

 

While the D-lux zoom is versatile, and sharp enough and fast enough for most, the images are comparatively flat - lacking the same special warm colors, micro-contrast and pop - the unique Leica look that you get with German Leica glass.

 

If you shoot M glass, you will know what I mean...

 

The XV zoom is incredibly versatile. It focuses close, has amazing color rendering and micro-contrast, and you can crop XV files like crazy.

 

I also have a Sony RX100 for those times when I need something super small to stow in my front pocket. It focuses and handles faster than the D-Lux, and has impressive IQ for it's size. Honestly, I can't remember the last time I used it however - because the XV is just that good. Mmmmmm. It is definitely worth the difference in size.

 

Also, the D-Lux and RX100 have retractable lenses that might gather dust in between the moving parts, which may also be a consideration in your situation. This won't be a problem with the XV.

 

Even a D-Lux won't fit in your front pocket, so the size difference between the D-Lux and XV is a closer call than the IQ differences between them. The XV is simply in a different league.

 

Good luck!

[!Nomad64]

Colonel & DGP, thank you once more for your further input.

 

I happen to share all of your points. I know that XV is a good to excellent camera and based on my requirements it's the most complete and versatile solution. Still, my problem is with pocket factor, and once ascertained that there's no single and definitive solution to my needs I think that I should set up a sub-system centered upon an X2, which is however an excellent compromise in terms of size and performances at the expenses of the flexibility provided by the zoom. It remains to be seen then what to pair it to when I'll need the extra reach towards either wide or tele end.

 

The XV makes an ideal complement as it happens to share the same batteries and EVF thus making more of an integrated system. Also IMHO it has the best commands among all compacts on the market which practically make no need for a learning curve.

Otherwise the T is still very tempting an option but it requires different batteries, another EVF and it needs to re-learn to drive. Furthermore it remains to be seen which issues it might reveal, if any. X2 and XV have already been on the market for quite some time, the T has just appeared.

 

Cheers,

Bruno

[waloszek]

My "ideal pair" consists of a Leica X Vario and a Ricoh GR (28mm), the latter as an alternative to the X2 (GR: no EVF*, other battery -- but I am a Ricoh fan and GXR owner...).

Best regards, Gerd

(More on this at: Leica X Vario: Introduction, Ricoh GR: Introduction)

*) This is a problem for me, because I do not like to put on my glasses...

[NZDavid]

...The XV has such great dynamic range - much, much better than D-Lux.

 

While the D-lux zoom is versatile, and sharp enough and fast enough for most, the images are comparatively flat - lacking the same special warm colors, micro-contrast and pop - the unique Leica look that you get with German Leica glass.

 

If you shoot M glass, you will know what I mean...

 

I agree mostly, but the D-Lux lets you choose various settings such as Dynamic, Nature, Smooth, and so forth which make a big difference to color rendition. The Dynamic setting definitely pops.

 

Dynamic range can be improved somewhat in LR. Pixel peeping definitely does show the limitations of the smaller sensor.

 

The X-Vario does indeed look like an excellent choice as an all-in-one camera if you accept its inherent limitations.

 

How does the X2 compare with the X-Vario for IQ?

[Guest]

!Nomad64,

 

That's quite a smart idea to match the XV and X2, since both cameras share accessories and have the same UI. Having a 24mm equivalent lens is also quite nice.

 

Since the X2 and XV share the same sensor, IQ will be good, and you'll get that Leica Look from both for sure.

 

Heck, you can buy a new XV ($2,200) and a used X2 ($1,400) for less than the cost of a new T with just 1 lens. Hmmmm..... now you have me thinking about the X2....

 

I do miss the 24mm of the D-Lux.

 

The points made above about the D-Lux are valid. IQ is quite good unless you are making very large prints or pixel peeping.

 

The GR is a great camera too but has a different UI - so it's something else to remember. That's a problem for me. I totally forgot my RX100 UI details for example, since the XV is always at my side instead.

 

Whatever you choose, they are all good cameras. Enjoy the journey using them. Good luck!

[!Nomad64]

@ DGP: that's an idea I borrowed from spylaw4 who has this very combo and is very happy with it. I think I'll follow your hint and get me a beater X2 for starter to see how does it suit me and then, all going well, I'll get me an XV.

I finally found some DL6 RAW files and dropped this option. It's a good camera, but the quality decrease if compared to the M9 and XV is just too much for me.

 

Thanks,

Bruno

[theoldman]

I bought an X Vario as a back up to my M240. Then I found I didn't really use it as the M240 is enough camera.

 

The images from the XV are astonishing, so sharp and so Leica, but if it's not needed it's just left at home. Mine is for sale in the classifieds if you are looking for one.

[Archiver]

Colonel & DGP, thank you once more for your further input.

 

I happen to share all of your points. I know that XV is a good to excellent camera and based on my requirements it's the most complete and versatile solution. Still, my problem is with pocket factor, and once ascertained that there's no single and definitive solution to my needs I think that I should set up a sub-system centered upon an X2, which is however an excellent compromise in terms of size and performances at the expenses of the flexibility provided by the zoom. It remains to be seen then what to pair it to when I'll need the extra reach towards either wide or tele end.

 

 

Bruno, just be careful that you aren't getting yourself into carrying just as much as a M9 and a few lenses. The XV is roughly the same size as a M6 with a Voigtlander 35/1.2, which is not small. Add the X2 and EVF and you've got two cameras that essentially equal the same kind of bulk as a M9 and a few lenses. And you're back to square one again.

 

I see the XV as a camera for the Leica enthusiast who does not want to change lenses; who primarily shoots in decent light; who does not need extra shallow depth of field/subject separation; and is happy with a 28-70mm focal length range. Then you're including a small camera with a 36mm f2.8 equivalent lens.

 

One time, I was using the M9 as the primary camera on a trip. In my daily bag was the M9, Summicron 50, Voigtlander 35/1.4 and Zeiss 21/2.8. Even this was heavy after a few hours of walking each day, as you would know. I took to using only the M9 and Voigtlander 35/1.4 at night, and this worked surprisingly well. No lens changes and a successful blend of small size, fast aperture and moderately wide angle. The Sony RX1 appeals to me for that reason and situation, where I might want a much smaller, lighter and still full-frame alternative.

[michaelbrenner]

X1 or X2 would be my choice. The X1 is a tad smaller than the X2, so that may be the way to go if you are looking for ultralight. My experience has been with the X1 using the magnetic-latch belt case, and it worked perfectly for my application. Prior to the X1, I had several of the Nikon pro SLRs and DSLRs (F5, etc.) and a stable of lenses, I think about 40 lbs of gear on my Domke bag. Lugging all that gear around got to be a real pain (in the lower back!).

 

So, I got the X1 and belt case, and it made quite a difference. I have taken the X1 *everywhere* I go, no reservations, from sailing races to fly fishing to rock climbing to street shooting in NYC. It's easy to carry when not in use, keeping both hands free. It's very discrete with low shutter noise. The IQ was unbelievable (for its time). Even though it is 35mm, I have many times used Lightroom to digitally zoom. The files are very malleable.

 

Anyhow, that's my two cents. Hope it helps.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[visoflex]

... just be careful that you aren't getting yourself into carrying just as much as a M9 and a few lenses.

 

A very good point. I have an M9 and 35/50/90 Summicrons plus a D-Lux 5. I also use the 5 as my 24mm when I run out of floor space. I did some similar thinking a while ago. It is not easy to trade off the want for total M9 picture quality in all circumstances against the need for light weight.

 

I just had to accept that the results from the D-Lux will be a bit compromised in some ways, but the trade off is that I've got a small camera, that still gives very good results in all but the most challenging environments. If I get sub-standard pictures, it's more to be down to my shortcomings as a photographer, rather than technical ones from the camera.

 

New cameras come on the market with seemingly sickening rapidity, so my opinions may change in the future. But in the meantime, I'll just accept that my kit is capable of capturing images far in excess of my ability!