klarmann Posted April 23, 2007 Share #1 Posted April 23, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Ladies and Gentlemen (Damen und Herren), I read with interest a recent thread in which the gentleman dis-assembled his M8. Of particular interest was his observation that with the case removed the shutter mechanism was virtually silent (ala the days of the M3...). It was his contention, I believe, that the mounting of the motor was the source of the noise -- which noise I found dreadful and therefore have put off purchase for that sole reason. I am not especially found of the click clunk of the R9, but since that is generally accepted, it cannot be deemed offensive, which is how I would characterise the M8 shutter noise. Note also, please, that since my favoured lens for my Leicaflex SL was the R180mm @ F2.8, I was looking forward to picking up an M135mm @F2.8 (with its set of eyes -- I had the 50mm dual-range Summicron for my M3, so I am familiar with such attachments), but then there is all that noise. Bottom line -- does anyone (listen up Solms) have any intel as to when this problem of shutter noise will be corrected? Cordially, Edith Patricia Klarmann, New York City 10016 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 23, 2007 Posted April 23, 2007 Hi klarmann, Take a look here M8 -- Shutter Noise. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Joe Mondello Posted April 23, 2007 Share #2 Posted April 23, 2007 My understanding was that the switch from a cloth curtain to metal was another source of the change in sound. I doubt you'll see any change in this any time soon since the camera is selling well and there has been no outcry about shutter noise, just (mostly) quiet resignation. If you need quiet, stick with your mechanical wind Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted April 23, 2007 Share #3 Posted April 23, 2007 1. Welcome, Ms. Klarmann 2. I haven't heard anything that suggests that Leica sees (or hears) the current sound level of the M8 as a priority problem. There are likely at least 2 people on this forum who may know differently - but they may not be able to tell us what they know (NDAs and such). As you allude to, there may be a possibility of adding an insulating layer of - something - between the motor and the body shell to deaden the noise further. Wouldn't hurt to drop a letter or email to Christian Ernhardt across the river at Leica NJ and let him know the sound is a sales-critical issue for you. He's V.P. for US Sales. 3. Leica did take SOME steps to try and minimize the noise - e.g., there is a rubber drive wheel in place of a gear in the linkage between the wind motor and the shutter to muffle some gear noise. 4. I think this is the first time anyone on THIS forum ever referred to Mark Norton as a "gentleman" (not that he isn't). Adds a bit o' clarse to the old place. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertwright Posted April 23, 2007 Share #4 Posted April 23, 2007 It's unlikely that with a 135 mounted your subject will hear you... Honestly, with the racket of cell phones going off in theatres and elswhere, and most ears filled with ipods, this is not much of an issue. I used to be very concerned with bothering people by taking pictures, the noise, etc, and then I found after a while that that was all in my head, and no one cared a wit much less noticed. The insensitivity of the noise of the camera has to be compensated for by the sensitivity of the photographer to the situation. If the situation is that fragile then maybe we should not be taking pictures, no? unless maybe it is our job? There is no magic camera, no magic technique, just being human and doing what you love is enough. If you like to work with a leica and want to work in digital, buy the M8. Nothing has been lost that was not pixie dust to begin with. I agree that it is not the same as the older cloth shutters, but I use both and I am not suddenly getting cold stares. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted April 23, 2007 Share #5 Posted April 23, 2007 I also notice that the noise level I hear when I am taking the picture versus being in front of the camera is quite different. You can barely hear it from the front and it sounds loud when it is up against your face taking a picture. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted April 23, 2007 Share #6 Posted April 23, 2007 I think this is the first time anyone on THIS forum ever referred to Mark Norton as a "gentleman" (not that he isn't). Adds a bit o' clarse to the old place. LOL, I can think of at least one person who would beg to differ! The force required to cock the shutter is surprisingly high, working against all those springs, which is the reason for the gearbox - I didn't measure the reduction ratio but my guess is it's several hundred to one, a tiny motor running from a 3v battery developing sufficient force to cock the shutter. As the shutter is cocked, it will resist the cocking force which in turn will try to tear the motor out of its mountings (3 screws) to the front of the die-cast case. If those mountings were compliant to reduce noise transmission, they might not then be strong enough to keep the motor in position. For noise sensitive situations, I like the idea of the shutter not cocking until you let go the shutter release. In a future camera, they could re-engineer the plastic plate you see inside the base (the one with the SD card orientation symbol) and provide a slider to allow a Leicavit type manual cocking lever to be used. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 23, 2007 Share #7 Posted April 23, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) I had some similar ideas about the sound. However, up till now the only comments I got from my victims was that the camera was rather quiet. I think a large part of this "issue" is that the sound seems to be deflected backwards and is not very obtrusive in front of the camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted April 23, 2007 Share #8 Posted April 23, 2007 I had some similar ideas about the sound. However, up till now the only comments I got from my victims was that the camera was rather quiet. I think a large part of this "issue" is that the sound seems to be deflected backwards and is not very obtrusive in front of the camera. Jaap - interesting point. I was recently working during a reading by Northern Irish poets (longest lens 75 lux) and had no raised eybrows or looks of disapproval. Sure, I did my best to work unobtrusively and didn't shoot during very intense moments, but I was still able to get good shots - and I certainly wouldn't have dreamed of using a 5D or other DSLR in the same setting. Photo of Paul Muldoon to demonstrate my point... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/22237-m8-shutter-noise/?do=findComment&comment=236025'>More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted April 23, 2007 Share #9 Posted April 23, 2007 Here is my suggestion to test the susceptibility of people to the M8 shutter noise. Go to one of the golf "majors". Wait on the last green until Tiger Woods has one putt to win the championship. Take the photo while he is putting. If he misses the hole, he will explain to you in detail as to whether or not the M8's shutter noise is distracting. You can then let us know the results from your hospital bed. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 23, 2007 Share #10 Posted April 23, 2007 Jaap - interesting point. I was recently working during a reading by Northern Irish poets (longest lens 75 lux) and had no raised eybrows or looks of disapproval. Sure, I did my best to work unobtrusively and didn't shoot during very intense moments, but I was still able to get good shots - and I certainly wouldn't have dreamed of using a 5D or other DSLR in the same setting. Photo of Paul Muldoon to demonstrate my point... I'm quite taken by that shot. The way he is not looking at you but in the distance.... And technically: no moire on his shirt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eronald Posted April 23, 2007 Share #11 Posted April 23, 2007 No noise is better. Except in fashion which is really an interactive sport, and where people want the rhythm. Edmund It's unlikely that with a 135 mounted your subject will hear you... Honestly, with the racket of cell phones going off in theatres and elswhere, and most ears filled with ipods, this is not much of an issue. I used to be very concerned with bothering people by taking pictures, the noise, etc, and then I found after a while that that was all in my head, and no one cared a wit much less noticed. The insensitivity of the noise of the camera has to be compensated for by the sensitivity of the photographer to the situation. If the situation is that fragile then maybe we should not be taking pictures, no? unless maybe it is our job? There is no magic camera, no magic technique, just being human and doing what you love is enough. If you like to work with a leica and want to work in digital, buy the M8. Nothing has been lost that was not pixie dust to begin with. I agree that it is not the same as the older cloth shutters, but I use both and I am not suddenly getting cold stares. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 23, 2007 Share #12 Posted April 23, 2007 There is always the Digilux2.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sps Posted April 23, 2007 Share #13 Posted April 23, 2007 I was shooting my M8 next to a friends 5D, and found the M8 to be much louder. I did the comparison b/c I got a lot of rude looks in church during a service, despite the choir singing. It may be that some M8's are louder than others. How tough would it be to compare noise levels? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
preston Posted April 23, 2007 Share #14 Posted April 23, 2007 Different work has different noise requirements, and for many it's apparently not an issue. But I often work in close quarters in interiors, and any noise is a real problem. My M6 was just quiet enough for this. I would join those who ask Leica to implement the features of my old Konica Hexar: - Do not wind until shutter is relased. - Offer a menu selectable "quiet mode" with slower wind speed if this would be quieter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wparsonsgisnet Posted April 23, 2007 Share #15 Posted April 23, 2007 As a shooter of dance in performance, I have a S*e*r*i*o*u*s problem with the noise of this shutter. When I need quiet I have to use the D2 -- and I have a similar problem with the 6-second wait for the write. Ausrufezeichen: Shutter Present. To Guy et al, how 'bout raising this one to the top of the lists being sent to Leica? I will happily pay for a retrofit upgrade! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted April 23, 2007 Share #16 Posted April 23, 2007 Not so sure you can lower the noise without sending it in without customizing it somehow or even fit insulation in there . Be interesting if someone could take a audio level reading from 1ft away from front and 1 ft away from the back than expand that to 5ft and see how much it drops. i think we forget our ear is 2 inches away. It really does not bother me and i am in a lot of quiet settings but i am not a old M user either Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sps Posted April 23, 2007 Share #17 Posted April 23, 2007 I no professional photographer, but my M7 seemed silent compared to the M8 (granted I do not use the winder). I would pay for a retrofit if it were available and reasonably priced. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mat_mcdermott Posted April 23, 2007 Share #18 Posted April 23, 2007 I just ran my own subjective test of shutter sound in front of the camera. I've always wondered what the difference was between the behind the lens sound and what it sounds like from the subject's perspective. I set the camera on a tripod, tripped the shutter with the 12s self-timer and ran around to about 12 feet away. The noise level was much reduced, though the effect was most noticable in the cocking of the shutter. The actual exposure seemed about the same as when you have the camera to your eye, but the cocking noise was markedly quieter. I think it's undeniable that the M8 is much louder than any previous M. This has not been a problem for me so far but would love it if the noise level could be reduced--though I know that because of the metal shutter it will never be as low as the cloth shutter. Whatever could be done in this regards would be great. It really seems to be cocking the shutter which causes all the noise; if it could be dampened in some way most of our problem would go away. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wparsonsgisnet Posted April 23, 2007 Share #19 Posted April 23, 2007 I've been browsing for blimps, since the posting today about them. There aren't any designed for an rf camera. I would buy one in an instant if it fit the M8. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted April 23, 2007 Share #20 Posted April 23, 2007 I just ran a test with a guest staying with me. About 10 feet away with his back to me. In increasingly perceptibility order: 1) Minox C - he could not hear it at all. 2) M8 - could hear it but the "whirr" of the re-cocking rather than the shutter 3) IIF could hear the shutter as a distinct double noise "ker-click" I wonder how much a Luigi case would damp the M8 noise? Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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