neal Posted January 28, 2014 Share #1 Posted January 28, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) War Trophy, this Leica IIIb was actually taken off a German officer during WWII. It was kept in a dresser drawer for nearly 60 years when it was sold to a local camera shop where I got it, unfortunately the name of the soldier who captured it and the particulars of it capture were not gotten by the camera dealer. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/221034-war-trophy/?do=findComment&comment=2520041'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 28, 2014 Posted January 28, 2014 Hi neal, Take a look here War Trophy. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
alandash Posted January 28, 2014 Share #2 Posted January 28, 2014 Neal, I have 2 3Bs, one almost mint, #331792, and the other about Ex+, #336014. (The 2nd one is for sale). What is the number of yours, and condition? I hardly ever come across a 3B. I believe it is the last one in the original LTM series. It is often overlooked in most collections. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted January 28, 2014 Share #3 Posted January 28, 2014 If Leitz were sent the number of a war trophy IIIb by its original owner, and that same camera later came to its attention, say during a servicing, how would the company adjudicate ownership? One of those sensitive questions which, I suspect, cannot be answered. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 28, 2014 Share #4 Posted January 28, 2014 If Leitz were sent the number of a war trophy IIIb by its original owner, and that same camera later came to its attention, say during a servicing, how would the company adjudicate ownership? One of those sensitive questions which, I suspect, cannot be answered. That should be no problem for Leica, because even if the camera was stolen, the theft has long been time-barred. Often Leicas were exchanged for American cigarettes, which were a common currency in the allied occupation zones before 1948. Therefore, the Leica IIIb could also have been acquired legally. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
neal Posted January 28, 2014 Author Share #5 Posted January 28, 2014 Sidearms, binoculars, cameras, etc were considered military contraband and were routinely confiscated from captured officers, many of these ended up as war trophies. When captured in the field quite often the soldiers kept the items rather than handing them over to higher ups who would usually keep them. Official "War Trophy" papers were issued for firearms not so for other goods. It was war. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted January 28, 2014 Share #6 Posted January 28, 2014 That should be no problem for Leica, because even if the camera was stolen, the theft has long been time-barred. Often Leicas were exchanged for American cigarettes, which were a common currency in the allied occupation zones before 1948. Therefore, the Leica IIIb could also have been acquired legally. I didn't mean to suggest it would be a problem now, but instead (say) until the 1960s. One notices all the issues of Leica Fotografie from that period contain serial numbers from stolen or lost cameras, and presumably Leitz kept those numbers in some sort of file. I wonder if any claims resulted from the war, which Leitz was forced in some way to adjudicate, and how it did so. Just a question out of historical interest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted January 28, 2014 Share #7 Posted January 28, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) ... I hardly ever come across a 3B. I believe it is the last one in the original LTM series. It is often overlooked in most collections. The IIIb was an intermediate model at a time, when Leitz prepared the new IIIc body. The IIIc looks only slightly different, but the production was completely changed as the new models after the IIIb were die-casted. I always got the impression, that the IIIb was sold mainly abroad as a typical exportation variant to the IIIa. Therefore it may be more probable to find a IIIb in the US or perhaps in Britain than in Germany. So I have some doubts about the "war trophy" story as long as nobody can give details about the origin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 28, 2014 Share #8 Posted January 28, 2014 I didn't mean to suggest it would be a problem now, but instead (say) until the 1960s. One notices all the issues of Leica Fotografie from that period contain serial numbers from stolen or lost cameras, and presumably Leitz kept those numbers in some sort of file. I wonder if any claims resulted from the war, which Leitz was forced in some way to adjudicate, and how it did so. Just a question out of historical interest. Since Allied occupation law always was of higher rank than the legislation of the Federal Republic of Germany, (- until today, with a look at the U.S. spy in this country, - ) no Leica, which was sent for repair or renovation to Wetzlar, seems to have been returned to their original owners, and certainly not, if they were owned by the former Wehrmacht. Leicas were handed over to the officers by their departments, even though many Leica wore no special engravings, they were not the private property of an officer. But for more precise statements one would have better to consult a military historian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
neal Posted January 28, 2014 Author Share #9 Posted January 28, 2014 This particular IIIb was made in 1940 after the start of the war, I doubt that these late IIIb's were exported. Although intended for export it makes sense that they were retained for government use, anyway that's the story I got with the camera and its condition fits the story. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted January 28, 2014 Share #10 Posted January 28, 2014 … how would the company adjudicate ownership? ... I do not think that the question of ownership of the goods sold long ago can be the responsibility of the manufacturer. At best, they can provide information on the original owner and on any addresses they happened to send the product to at later times. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted January 28, 2014 Share #11 Posted January 28, 2014 Sorry, Philipp. I think you missed my clarification. I am not wondering what Leica would do today, but what Leitz did reasonably shortly after the war. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted January 28, 2014 Share #12 Posted January 28, 2014 That's not a problem as my reply applies to any time after the sale. They are not responsible for keeping track of ownership. Quite possibly, they did not even know the names of the first and original owner, unless the owners told them. I believe it's that way even now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted January 28, 2014 Share #13 Posted January 28, 2014 The scenario is: a dispossessed former owner reports his serial number as having been "war-trophied" by an allied soldier, and that serial number appears again for servicing at a dealer or at Wetzlar. Apologies: I have not been very clear. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted January 28, 2014 Share #14 Posted January 28, 2014 Even so, it would not be possible for Ernst Leitz, Wetzlar, to arbitrate. They could supply lawyers with records, but they could not determine ownership, as they have no way of telling whether the camera was in fact taken from the owner or sold by the owner for money or goods. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted January 28, 2014 Share #15 Posted January 28, 2014 Is this what happens when a serial number is reported as stolen to Solms today? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted January 28, 2014 Share #16 Posted January 28, 2014 You'd have to ask Wetzlar (), but I'm quite certain that it can not be otherwise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twotone Posted January 29, 2014 Share #17 Posted January 29, 2014 You can report a stolen Cartier watch to Cartier who then put the watch on a database and if the watch goes to a Cartier shop for repair or service then the watch can be withheld or so they (Cartier) say. My daughter's Tank Francais watch was stolen and reported to both the local police and to Cartier UK. Doubt that it will ever turn up though but it might be problem for someone trying to sell it on without papers, presume something similar happens with modern Leicas? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted January 29, 2014 Share #18 Posted January 29, 2014 Is this what happens when a serial number is reported as stolen to Solms today? Apparently if the thief reports it as being 'confiscated', and that he definitely didn't loot or otherwise steal it, everything is OK and there is no comeback. But there was a vast black market in 'liberated' goods being run by servicemen of all nations after the war and many 'war trophies' were sold with stories attached so people who didn't fight, or just missed out on getting a trophy, could live the experience vicariously. Leica cannot possibly have detailed enough records to do anything about anything nowadays, especially as a Leica may have been exchanged for a packet of cigarettes, and who would ask for a receipt? Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lorax412 Posted January 29, 2014 Share #19 Posted January 29, 2014 It there a difference in brightness between the IIIa type arrangement and the IIIb? Meaning are there any optical compromisees made to move the eyepieces closer together? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted January 29, 2014 Share #20 Posted January 29, 2014 This particular IIIb was made in 1940 after the start of the war, I doubt that these late IIIb's were exported. Although intended for export it makes sense that they were retained for government use, anyway that's the story I got with the camera and its condition fits the story. I can only repeat what has been said before: without any proof it is very hard to guess the camera's original owner. Government use was sometimes but not always marked on the camera - not by Leitz but by the goverment/miltary units whch owned them. And even after the war had begun Leitz was still exporting to other countries. It was only in 1944 when "total war" was declared by the Nazis, that industrial production was limited to military (including criminal) means. In the times before - even during war - Leitz was very keen to keep its civil - which also meant international - customers. We don't know who first bought the item, we don't even know the serial number (or did I miss it?) so any speculation about who got the camera legitimally or not is unbased. It is just one of approx. 30,000 IIIb cameras with a lens. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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