Sony Monochrom???

[adan]

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...explain why, if it isn't economically possible for Sony to do it, Leica are doing it with the M240?

 

Did anyone say "it isn't economically possible for Sony"?

 

What is certainly true is that it was an economical NECESSITY for Leica. Their survival required a digital camera that worked with Leica M lenses, nothing less. At one point (c. 2003), Leica themselves said it was NOT possible - and then they read the writing on the wall (and saw Epson come out with the R-D1), and spent whatever was necessary to achieve the "impossible."

 

And it certainly was difficult - remember the IR magenta of the M8, and the Italian flag/red-edge troubles of the M9 (neither yet totally solved with the M240, although irrelevant to a Monochrom(e) camera).

 

Leica's economic survival depended on sensors compatible with M lenses - so Leica jumped through the necessary hoops. Sony's economic survival does not - and so Sony has not bothered to jump through all the same hoops. Why should they?

 

If we just take your figure of 5 million lenses that makes 50 lenses are out in the world for every body sold. It increases by adding LTM's.

 

The "less-than-5-million" figure is a generous upper limit based on Leica's own lens serial numbers - which INCLUDE Leica-made LTM lenses back to 1931 (and also include every R and S lens as well - Leica uses one serial number series for ALL their lens lines) - and are currently somewhere in the 4 millions.

 

Minus, of course, losses to war, flood, or other mishap** over the past 80 years.

 

**crashing with the Hindenburg, or falling 25,000 feet from a fighter jet, etc.: Abenteuer-Leicas - PhotoDeal, Magazin f

 

I was generous in estimating precisely to allow for the non-Leica-made lenses, M or LTM.

 

...now tell me again there isn't a market for a body with that specifically optimised lens to sensor distance.

 

I never said there wasn't a market - just that it didn't need to be Sony's market. Not with 100-million-plus other lenses to work with.

 

As to whether the number of Sony FE lenses (and third-party FE lenses - Sony owns a large chunk of Tamron, as well as their association with Zeiss) will ever match Leica's lifelong production, well, you've looked into your crystal ball, and I've looked into mine.

[Ivan Muller]

Sony needs to get the sensor photo-site/microlens geometry fixed to address corner smearing issues with non-telecentric lenses.

 

The A7r have no fast wides and the prospects for any becoming available in the near future are dim, so they rely on adapters/Leica lenses in this regard. But this needs to be made to work right. Monochrome version? Surely you're joking? Who's going to buy it? Perhaps those that aspire to purchase a Leica M Monochrome -- not likely.

 

I will buy one .I am quite keen on a 7R as it is...about the same price for a body over here than the price of an X2. If there is a meaningful increase in quality over the 7R a monochrome might be tempting. Haven't heard about corner smearing, maybe its a leica lens thing. Anyway running files with colour issues through LR flat field plugin will sort the colour out. I have used it before and it works like a charm.

So how many lenses does one need to do photography? I can quite happily spend the rest of my life with a body and a 35mm lens, It doesn't even have to be a fast one, something like the new 35mm f2.8 for the Sony alpha will work just fine. Or how about the Canon IS f2 via an adapter. AF focus might be a tad slow but youve got IS to make up for it and there is always MF....the thing thats a novelty about the Sony is that you can add a myriad of 3rd party lenses via adapters...that 7R (monochrome or colour) plus my Canon 24TS f3.5 (now thats slow!) sounds like a match made in heaven.

[mwilliamsphotography]

Someone said or implied that Sony has no long term game plan, and is meandering all over the photographic landscape.

 

Actually, that isn't quite true despite their "Cornucopia of Cameras" spilling out into the marketplace.

 

They are after Canon and Nikon marketshare, not pip-squeak Leica who seeks a monied 1% marketshare.

 

To do that, they are altering the photographic landscape by offering alternative technologies at relatively reasonable prices. This is marketing 101 when faced with entrenched competition. Don't play the game, change the game. The same game Leica played in the 1930s.

 

So, they no longer make any serious cameras with an Optical Viewfinder and have committed to EVFs. By necessity and invention, these will evolve well beyond where they are now … but even where they are now offers some very interesting advantages, (as well as some drawbacks). The next generation or two EVF will challenge prevailing opinions IMO. However, it is clear that this is the consistant and dedicated path forward for Sony.

 

While Sony retains their presence in 35mm type DSLR/SLT type cameras with new A mount Alpha models coming in APSc and FF versions, they are dedicated to reducing the size of a more fully featured camera with no legacy baggage to carry forward. NEX was a shot over the bow of the competition, and the FF A7/A7R is the next cruise missile in that direction. Sony is both patient and relentless.

 

Sony is a premiere sensor maker, and their next step in sensor technology that already exists promises to be a jaw dropper. A8R anyone?

 

Personally, I'm not worried about the FE lens line-up. After all, the S2 was also a new ground up design and the lenses were vaporware for years, not months.

 

All the above are evolutionary steps to the end game. Sony tends to follow a contineous flow of cameras approach that institutes technological changes as they become available (rather than waiting for years to do so) because they are working to a conquest strategy to contineously pull in more new users. As someone said earlier, once you buy into the lens systems (A, E, or FE), then customer retention is less of an issue … not to mention that for most people, mustering up $1,700 for a FF 24 meg small camera is a bit easier than $7,000.

 

As to a B&W Sony FF camera … who knows? I'd suspect there are more artistically inclined young photographers that'd love such a thing but by pure station in life could no more afford a M Monochrome than a Porsche. If Sony does it, I'll bet it'll be under $3K. even possibly under $2K.

 

BTW, by this time next year, I'll bet that the A7R will be under $2K also.

 

Absolutely none of this takes anything away from Leica nor their unique rangefinder product. Like a broken record I'll say it again … a rangefinder, is a rangefinder, is a rangefinder.

 

- Marc

[dant]

(SR4) Sony to launch a Full Frame Black and White sensor camera? | sonyalpharumors

 

Sony most likely will not be Leica like. No manual shutter controls or zone focus / rangefinder ability. At least that is how Sony has done it in the past.

 

Now, if Fuji or Sony came out with a true Leica knockoff that took Leica glass for $3000...then there would be a storm possibly.

[jaapv]

Problem is that such a camera would most likely cost as much or more as the Leica offering. At least that is what Zeiss said a few years ago and we can assume that they can access Sony resources.

[wolfloid]

Problem is that such a camera would most likely cost as much or more as the Leica offering. At least that is what Zeiss said a few years ago and we can assume that they can access Sony resources.

 

That seems very unlikely to me. Reasons given for high Leica camera prices are limited, low production runs compared to their Japanese competitors, and a high level of hand-assembly, finishing and QC.

 

Sony will avoid the latter and their sensor ownership and aggressive price placing will enter the feedback loop of higher production and sales, which in turn takes care of the price. Zeiss is a separate company, which was presumably talking about their own capacity to create such a camera on their own, so I don't think your final assumption was correct.

[AlanG]

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I think Sony could make a small batch of monochome A7r bodies anytime they thought it would be in their interest to do so. After all they just have to replace the color filter array (with some plain glass?) and change some features in the firmware. Consider that in just a few months Sony has introduced 3 variations of the A7.

 

Sony does seem to lead the world in these kinds of FF camera sensors and that is one reason some Canon shooters have bought the A7r to use with their EOS lenses... 17 and 24 TSE lenses in particular. So it is not just a Leica M thing. The A7s may similarly appeal to user of various brands due to its special capabilities. And a monochrome model from Sony would work with a lot more lenses than Leica's Moochrome will. Eventually the Sony lens lineup will expand and those early adopters will add some of those lenses too.

[jaapv]

That seems very unlikely to me. Reasons given for high Leica camera prices are limited, low production runs compared to their Japanese competitors, and a high level of hand-assembly, finishing and QC.

 

Sony will avoid the latter and their sensor ownership and aggressive price placing will enter the feedback loop of higher production and sales, which in turn takes care of the price. Zeiss is a separate company, which was presumably talking about their own capacity to create such a camera on their own, so I don't think your final assumption was correct.

But Zeiss certainly has access to Sony technology and has their own rangefinder expertise - It should work - but it didn’t. So I think wishing for a cheaper equivalent to a Leica M is whistling in the wind.

[-Lss-]

But Zeiss certainly has access to Sony technology and has their own rangefinder expertise - It should work - but it didn’t.

Access to off-the-shelf sensors as much as anyone surely, some direct product and prototyping experience (e.g., related to RX1, perhaps less so with NEX and A7 line) can be assumed - but it is unknown to me whether Zeiss has worked with Sony on actual development of a rangefinder camera. (Not a product even, merely a tech demo.) Knowing the challenges I think this would require at least a team and some prototyping by Sony, not just Zeiss looking at existing solutions, and their management communicating that something cannot be done. The engineers if given actual chance to do something may very well disagree with such a position.

[jaapv]

Quite possibly, but whatever approach was -or was not- taken has clearly resulted in a no-go.

[photosynthesia]

They know that they really fast have to envelop a evenly matching EVF. So there might be no opportunity to invest additional money and time into engineering a mechanical hybrid.

 

Second point. It's pretty smart to be 'just' the designer or producer of a lense. If you've done your math, you will anyway earn good critics. And if the cam builder don't do, it's mostly not your prob. Additional your subcustomers are addicted to the market policy and securing your income.

 

If Zeiss or Sony would take this risk, they would have to to a damn good job, not just to be just another mechanical rangefinder cam.

 

And I'm not sure about the capability of the market.