Strange white spots on M9 sensor?

[keithlaban.co.uk]

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I had plans next year to invest further in the Leica M system. Sad to say that's no longer going to happen unless there is a fair and lasting resolution to this problem.

[pgk]

I did correct my advice after it was made clear that the discussion concerns irregular white bits in the sensor, and not dust on the sensor.

 

It would be helpful to narrow the issue to specifics, to have more photographs of the specific deterioration of the sensor and the image it produces. So far it is difficult to discern exactly what one should look for. Some of the evidence we have been shown could be dust, perhaps oil, not lamination or corrosion damage.

 

The OP, Clong34, has one such image. We need more.

 

Just trying to avoid Chicken Little syndrome.

I'm in agreement with this.

 

And, FWIW, having waded through a fair chunk of this thread, I wonder if the 'wet cleaning issue' causing problems relates to the use of iso-propyl alcohol which is insufficiently 'dry'. Its available in many grades and I note that the wet system recommended by Leica uses a fluid (which I assume is iso-propyl alcholhol as this is what Leica suggest should be used) of 'pharmaceutical standard', meaning very pure and 'dry'. Just a thought, but using alcohol with a greater amount of water in it might exacerbate the problem.....

 

That said, my '3 year old', ex-demo M9 has no signs of this problem whatsoever. I will worry about it IF it happens. In the meantime I'll just dry clean its sensor (which is all I've ever done) - Mayfair have cleaned it once too.

 

I'd be interested to hear people's suggested 'remedy' though, as in 'what would actually satisfy them'. [As a thought, Paramo have a scheme by which they offer a 'guaranteed trade-in' price for used garments - which keeps their resale value up. A somewhat modified version of this idea for used and affected cameras alongside a repair scheme as already offered would seem 'reasonable' to me at least].

 

And FWIW I am aware from discussions with people who deal with such things, that many sensors from various manufacturers have indeed shown up a variety of problems, but by no means all and not every sensor is affected.

[k_g_wolf ✝]

>> Keith

 

Sad n´bad for the Co., nevertheless an understandable decision. I have too many lenses lying

around - but I might be thinking along this line in a few weeks as well ...

 

Best

GEORG

[bocaburger]

Leica has a serious problem here on a multitude of levels. The problems with repairs for the DMR and M8 cropped up far too soon, but they were discontinued products at the time, and failures of LCD's in the M8 (aside from the coffee stain, which is a nuisance not a fatality) are not common. This sensor issue is beginning to look epidemic, and it affects models in current production. Leica is sitting on inventory. So are dealers, so it's not just customers who are pissed off. Unlike the situation with the DMR and M8, it seems to me like it would make the most economic sense for Leica to invest in the R&D to revamp the sensor to solve the delamination issue.

[Manoleica]

Hi, as a Leica user for more years than I care to think about, (happily used 35mm M's and

R's and then a succession of Leica digitals) although nearly having pulled the trigger on different digital M's I have always stayed with my X1 & XVario.. (maybe just a gut feeling or cost against use) With the current Sensor Issue, I cannot understand why anyone with the issue does not (A) have the sensor inspected & the issue legally legitimized ( write a statement & have it Notarized. © box up & ship the camera to Wetzlar.

Although the camera can be used it is not as per specifications. Leica accept that the Sensors have issues. My claim to Leica would be at least 5 years Free warranty/coverage after they replace the Sensor or the complete camera, plus the cost of shipping + the cost of renting an equivalent camera until such time as my complaint/claim is resolved.

I would think that after a few hundred shipments arrive at Wetzlar & the news boys get hold of the story (with pictures) Leica will respond PDQ................

Just my humble opinion.................

[andybarton]

IWC said fair offer Andy.

 

 

If you read what I wrote, I didn't pass any comment on whether I thought their offer fair or unfair. I just pointed out that Leica had made clear what their offer is.

 

Whether it is fair or unfair is for the individual customer to decide.

 

I don't have a dog in this fight, since I have never owned a digital M camera, but I do sincerely sympathise with those owners whose very expensive cameras are affected by this problem.

[GMB]

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I own a M9 and a MM. I know I am late to this thread but here are my thoughts on some of the issues discussed:

1. It seems obvious that this is a design / construction fault of the sensor. It does not only affect a specific batch (as, for example, the S2 sensors who cracked) but the entire production, including new sensor produced.
   
2. I accept that there are certain wear-and-tear parts in the camera that may have to be repaired/replaced after a certain time (such as the shutter). But a sensor (or a sensor cover glass) is not a wear-and-tear part and therefore it is unacceptable that users have to change it after a certain number of years / months.
   
3. I also accept that a digital camera loses its value relatively fast, because new models with better technology come on the market at lower prices. But it is my choice whether and when I want to realize that loss by selling my “outdated” camera. As long as I do not want/need to sell my M9 or MM, I don’t care at what price I can sell them.
   
4. I therefore find it unacceptable that Leica makes the price of the sensor replacement dependent on the age of the camera (or the date of the last sensor replacement) or that they offer only a fairly modest discount for the upgrade. Frankly I would expect them to guarantee free sensor replacement for he lifetime of the camera and that within a reasonable time.
   
5. Leica must have realized they are in deep trouble here. They are sitting between a rock and a hard place. First, they have a reputation problem. The M line is their flagship and the M customers are their most loyal customers and most likely also their cash cow. If they piss the M customers off, they lose big time. Plus, they lose the reputation as a high quality, customer oriented brand. Second, they have a legal problem. They must have known about this systematic problem since quite some time. (My M9 had its sensor exchanged in 2012.) Yet, they continued to sell cameras with the defective sensor, without telling their customers. For example, had Leica told me in 2012 what the issue was, I would not have subsequently bout the MM. Third, any solution that would satisfy their customers and avoid legal battles will be costly. But not satisfying their customers may be even more costly.
   
6. I assume that Leica is currently talking to their business, PR, and legal advisors what to do and, until a final decision has been taken, will not communicate further. I also hope and assume that Leica’s current offer is not the last word. If, however, that offer is their last word, my love affair with Leica is likely to come to an end.
   

[M9reno]

With the current Sensor Issue, I cannot understand why anyone with the issue does not (A) have the sensor inspected & the issue legally legitimized ( write a statement & have it Notarized. © box up & ship the camera to Wetzlar.

 

Thank you. This is exactly what I have done, minus the legal arm-twisting. They now have my camera and I am awaiting their response and a fair outcome. I have made it clear that I do not want to be fobbed-off with a replacement sensor of the same specs, even for free.

[Manoleica]

Thank you. This is exactly what I have done, minus the legal arm-twisting. They now have my camera and I am awaiting their response and a fair outcome. I have made it clear that I do not want to be fobbed-off with a replacement sensor of the same specs, even for free.

 

A good education gets right to the point (Cambridge guy here).. Good Luck.

In the past I have challenged VW, Apple, Hyundai & 2 Insurance companies..

All have stepped up to the plate, Apple replacing a 2009 Book with a 2014 model ..

VW replacing a Lemon:D..Hyundai a Full refund ..The insurance companies stepping back & writing cheques .. No, I'm not a legal beagle, I do my homework & stand firm...

[Guest digiuser_reloaded]

Dear all

 

pop has translated the open letter to Leica into english language. You will find the bilingual version here for download the english version only in the german section (see link below)

 

If you a gree with the open letter, please do it by pressing "Danke" in the german section of this forum: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/forum-zur-leica-m9/355714-offener-brief-die-leica-camera-ag.html

Edited December 4, 2014 by digiuser_reloaded

[andybarton]

Maybe this should be in a new thread, so that Leica can see the split between German and international "Thankers"

 

Just a thought.

 

I am happy to move it if that's what people want.

[Schrödinger's cat]

Should anyone have an interest in such things, Leica NJ has responded today (Dec 4) to my November request for information regarding M9 sensor replacement. My question was:

 

"Could you please advise if appropriate service parts to replace the image sensor in an M9 are currently available and in stock and a general estimate of the time required to have this work performed? Thanx in advance."

 

 

The response is:

 

"The Leica Service Department reports that there is a backlog on availability of M9 sensors. When the repair is done, the turn-around time is typically 2-3 weeks. Please check back with repair@leicacamerausa.com at a later date for status on sensor availability."

 

 

I should have been more specific in inquiring when they anticipated sensor availability.

[jevidon]

Hi Pico

This thread is interesting to a broad spectrum of members: current owners of the M9, M-E, M9-P and MM, and also potential future owners - the used M9 price is now a reasonable re-entry to a digital M for people like me who rarely need or use digital cameras anymore.

 

By reading this thread, I'm trying to assess whether all M9 cameras are affected by this problem, and to what extent the problem deteriorates over time - possibly until the entire sensor is covered by delamination crust, or alternatively whether the sensor is usable for a good many years while the spots are isolated and infrequent.

 

Whichever way it goes, etc........

 

My M9 had just a few white spots or corrosion spots. They really didn't bother me much because I really didn't know what they were. If my camera wasn't already at Leica for an upgrade, I probably would have gone on shooting. The spots are easily removable from the image by use of Photoshop healing brush. One click and they are gone. This isn't to say there isn't a problem, nor do I believe that Leica shouldn't have taken immediate action to protect its consumers as soon as they were aware of the problem. But if you find an M9

at a really good price and the seller allows you to shoot some test shots of a blue sky or similar featureless background and then examine the image for the extent if any of the whiter spot phenomenon, then go for it.

 

I had a Nikon D70s that exhibited the same phenomenon, although I didn't know what it was at the time. The spots did not propagate so far as I recall. Whether or not they propagate or grow on the M9, I'll leave to those who have experienced it, if at all.

[jevidon]

Should anyone have an interest in such things' date=' Leica NJ has responded today (Dec 4) to my November request for information regarding M9 sensor replacement. My question was:

 

"Could you please advise if appropriate service parts to replace the image sensor in an M9 are currently available and in stock and a general estimate of the time required to have this work performed? Thanx in advance."

 

 

The response is:

 

"The Leica Service Department reports that there is a backlog on availability of M9 sensors. When the repair is done, the turn-around time is typically 2-3 weeks. Please check back with [email']repair@leicacamerausa.com[/email] at a later date for status on sensor availability."

 

 

I should have been more specific in inquiring when they anticipated sensor availability.

 

They ( Leica New Jersey) told me a few days ago that they expected the replacement sensors in two to three weeks.

[Jon Warwick]

I bought an expensive and fancy flat screen TV a few years ago. It packed up. It was out of warranty. I threw it away and got a new one. It was a box of electronics, just like a Leica digital. Isn't that simply a function of the brave new world (new and relatively untested technology) that sets it apart from the mechanical world?

[k-hawinkler]

No, not really. Typically electronics doesn't come with a design or manufacturing defect.

If it happens on occasion, the defective unit gets generally repaired, replaced, or recalled, free of charge.

 

We ought to expect nothing less from Leica.

Edited December 4, 2014 by k-hawinkler

[Manoleica]

They ( Leica New Jersey) told me a few days ago that they expected the replacement sensors in two to three weeks.

 

That's not the owners problem...period..

[jaapv]

No, but it is nice to be kept informed.

[jaapv]

Maybe this should be in a new thread, so that Leica can see the split between German and international "Thankers"

 

Just a thought.

But we must weed out double signers.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[k-hawinkler]

Why can't you moderators leave well enough alone?