Strange white spots on M9 sensor?

[photokalia]

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And if more people read this thread, and panic, and send their cameras in, you won't have your camera back until Christmas 2016.

 

I appreciate what you are saying about being a voice of reason. I agree. I'm not trying to create panic. The photo I posted of my sensor is one data point, and for all I know, confined to just me. Only Leica will know this.

 

I just want Leica to officially make a statement on how they will deal with the matter. All that was committed to me by Leica as far as I'm concerned was a one-time replacement of sensor with no explanation on what to expect if the problem happens again. I have also not been offered the option of upgrading to the M240.

 

I'm not prepared to make a decision based on forum posts. I would like to know my options officially (fairness is another issue) so that I can make an informed decision on what to do next. I've said before here that I'm not an unreasonable customer. IF this is a manufacturing defect on Leica's part, I expect a one-time fix that addresses the root cause of the issue. After that, the camera is my liability. I think that's fair.

 

But so far, they haven't explained anything to me, whether individually, or openly through official channels. The other issue is that my M9 is still with them. So this is why I'm here instead of out there shooting photos with it (My M6 TTL is with them too, but that's a separate issue). The sooner they give me camera back, with explanation on the root cause of the issue and my options, the sooner I'll be back shooting photos and out of their hair.

Edited December 6, 2014 by photokalia

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[Manoleica]

What a load of uninformed ......

 

The voice of a True Leica Fan Boy...

[edwardkaraa]

The voice of a True Leica Fan Boy...

 

Me?

[Manoleica]

Erl..

You are a Gent"

[edwardkaraa]

I appreciate what you are saying about being a voice of reason. I agree. I'm not trying to create panic. The photo I posted of my sensor is one data point, and for all I know, confined to just me. Only Leica will know this.

 

I just want Leica to officially make a statement on how they will deal with the matter. All that was committed to me by Leica as far as I'm concerned was a one-time replacement of sensor with no explanation on what to expect if the problem happens again. I have also not been offered the option of upgrading to the M240.

 

I'm not prepared to make a decision based on forum posts. I would like to know my options officially (fairness is another issue) so that I can make an informed decision on what to do next. I've said before here that I'm not an unreasonable customer. IF this is a manufacturing defect on Leica's part, I expect a one-time fix that addresses the root cause of the issue. After that, the camera is my liability. I think that's fair.

 

But so far, they haven't explained anything to me, whether individually, or openly through official channels. The other issue is that my M9 is still with them. So this is why I'm here instead of out there shooting photos with it (My M6 TTL is with them too, but that's a separate issue). The sooner they give me camera back, with explanation on the root cause of the issue and my options, the sooner I'll be back shooting photos and out of their hair.

 

Sorry if it sounded like I criticized your post because that wasn't my intention. You are fully right in what you say. I merely wanted to point out that if Leica gets flooded with sensor repairs it is going to increase the service times substantially.

[erl]

The voice of a True Leica Fan Boy...

Definitely NOT!

Yet another of your vociferous uniformed comments.

 

FYI: I am potentially a VERY unhappy M9 owner/user. I have signed the 'complaint' letter referred to somewhere above, directed at Leica.

 

My point to your earlier post is that it really comes across as based on ignorance, or at the very least, lack of hard facts. There is no single point in that post that can be substantiated by evidence. If I am wrong, please inform me.

[Manoleica]

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Definitely NOT!

Yet another of your vociferous uniformed comments.

 

FYI: I am potentially a VERY unhappy M9 owner/user. I have signed the 'complaint' letter referred to somewhere above, directed at Leica.

 

My point to your earlier post is that it really comes across as based on ignorance, or at the very least, lack of hard facts. There is no single point in that post that can be substantiated by evidence. If I am wrong, please inform me.

 

Sir, may I suggest you stand back and look at the overall situation.

My Post, was my view of a very poor customer relations exercise. Namely Leica.

The facts are:- Some if not all of the relevant Sensors have an inherent fault. Even the replacements are suspect.. Thus the resale value wether the sensor has been replaced or not Has & will remain affected. Sales of 35mm cameras have been steadily rising, though admittedly they will never reach the pre digital heights. Anyone who takes the time to Post or reply to a Post in most circumstances voices their own views & opinions. A La' - Free Speech. If you don't agree that's fine, but do not denegrate.. Politics, Religion & Ignorance are best left at the door.

[pop]

Why is our forum practically the only place where this is being discussed and why is there not an uproar in tropical countries?

 

Until a few weeks ago Leica routinely replaced every sensor thus affected at no cost. Suddenly, they started charging certain customers for this repair.

 

One of those customers who is unusually well informed took this business up with our forum.

 

For all I know, this forum might be the only place where all the facts are known, excepting Leica, of course.

[k-hawinkler]

Why is our forum practically the only place where this is being discussed and why is there not an uproar in tropical countries?

 

Until a few weeks ago Leica routinely replaced every sensor thus affected at no cost. Suddenly, they started charging certain customers for this repair.

 

One of those customers who is unusually well informed took this business up with our forum.

 

For all I know, this forum might be the only place where all the facts are known, excepting Leica, of course.

 

 

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145845

 

New Leica "CCDgate" Scandal Afoot? | La Vida Leica!

Edited December 6, 2014 by k-hawinkler

[erl]

manoleica, step back and read your own post #679, which is all I addressed. I was not commenting on Leica's shortcoming's you mention, which incidentally I agree with.

 

In post #679 you said. "I find it hard to believe that the majority of Leica owners only have 1 camera!!

This is such a bloody naive opinion I still marvel at it's ignorance. Many Leica owners struggle to get their first, and only Leica. I am not one, but that is immaterial.

Then you said, ""Surely if Leica service at Wetzlar or wherever have a large amount of returns they will employ more technicians to reduce the backlog. The longer owners wait for their serviced cameras to be returned the more they might consider alternatives in the future!!

So you would be happy with short term employees, inexperienced and hastily trained working on your camera? I think not. Certainly I would not!

 

The rest of that post is pure unsubstantiated speculation.

 

It was all of that, and only that, that I was criticizing, and still do.

Edited December 6, 2014 by erl

[M9reno]

So do I...

 

Probably because there is the perception that Leica aren't listening, so that their two posts in this forum are seen as earth-shakingly exceptional. This thread was in deep sleep until JJ's post. Leica themselves have attracted discussion of the problem here.

 

Likewise the "panic" sending of cameras to flood CS at Wetzlar must in part be caused by the here-announced new regime of ascending sensor-replacement costs to the customer. No one wants to be out of warranty and be stuck with an ever larger bill, so they are checking their cameras, finding the problem (even early traces of it) and sending cameras in.

 

These two examples might suffice to show how back-footed Leica have been in managing this problem in the Internet age.

 

The "how to clean your sensor" email from this summer is another example.

 

The purging of sensor-cleaning info from their website is another example.

 

The suggestion that contact cleaning is detrimental to sensors, despite Internet videos of such cleaning taking place (rather forcefully, I might add) at Solms is another example.

 

Rather amateurish and chaotic, no? Makes for disconcerting reading for M9 owners, and a bizarrely fascinating spectacle for anyone else.

[keithlaban.co.uk]

You see the problem? Almost every M9 and derivatives sold in Bangkok has had the sensor replaced but no one is making so much fuss about it. There are similar cases I know of in Kuala Lumpur and Singapore. Some of them brand new MM and ME cameras. The problem is, why do you want to make so much noise if Leica replaced your sensor for free, and will keep on replacing it for free within a 3 year cycle. What more do you want?

 

A lasting fix using a fit for purpose sensor assembly would be the minimum requirement.

 

I would imagine those customers eyeing up those shiny new MMs and MEs on the dealers shelves would also expect a tad more than a substandard sensor assembly.

[edwardkaraa]

Why is our forum practically the only place where this is being discussed and why is there not an uproar in tropical countries?

 

Until a few weeks ago Leica routinely replaced every sensor thus affected at no cost. Suddenly, they started charging certain customers for this repair.

 

One of those customers who is unusually well informed took this business up with our forum.

 

For all I know, this forum might be the only place where all the facts are known, excepting Leica, of course.

 

I don't think that is quite accurate. The local dealer where I bought my M9 and who took care of the entire procedure on my behalf told me Leica were charging 1000$ per piece for all out of warranty cameras. I know a personal friend who was charged because his camera was bought second hand and was out of warranty. That was more than one year ago. I was informed Leica was blaming wet cleaning with eclipse even at that time. So this whole issue isn't new and has been going on for at least a couple of years.

 

It's probably because more cameras are out of warranty and more people are being charged that the issue was brought out to the open.

[Guest]

...Almost every M9 and derivatives sold in Bangkok has had the sensor replaced but no one is making so much fuss about it...

Thai Leica users may not be making a fuss about this on international forums, but have you read any of the Thai language photo forms?

 

Today, I was at a shopping center in Chiang Mai and, by chance, found a Leica dealer. The store manager confirmed that almost all M-CCD cameras sold in Thailand had to have sensor replacements because of de-lamination. He sounded pretty glum for obvious reasons.

 

BTW, while in the store I looked at the Fuji X-T1, in case I have to be without my M9-P and M-Monochrom for many months when these two cameras have to have their sensors replaced the second time. That is likely to happen in several months because, as I reported above, small de-lamination spots have again started to appear on both cameras. The X-T1 is a dazzling camera in many ways, and is a much better substitute for a Leica (non-full frame) body than the Ricoh M-Module: the EVF is much better (better resolution and no discernible display lag) and manual focus is actually very good in that there is the option of a "dual display" mode that shows the full EVF view and beside it a small magnified "Focus Assist" view that doesn't need focus peeking for accurate focusing. (David Allen Harvey has been using the X-T1 and confirms that manual focus is good, and better than on the X100.) Obviously not as good as the M-series rangefinder, but much better than I thought it would be.

[edwardkaraa]

A lasting fix using a fit for purpose sensor assembly would be the minimum requirement.

 

I would imagine those customers eyeing up those shiny new MMs and MEs on the dealers shelves would also expect a tad more than a substandard sensor assembly.

 

Ideally yes, but I don't think that is going to happen. It is probably more feasible for Leica to discontinue the ME and MM and use their stocks of sensors for repairs, as long as the stocks last. I doubt they will order new sensors with modified glass covers.

 

I am not disagreeing with you, I just doubt Leica would do it.

[k-hawinkler]

A Public Relations manager - who used to be in charge of Public Relations for the United States Air Force, Europe - once explained to me that there are only two types of companies, namely those which already had a PR nightmare, and those which are going to have one. Leica currently seems in transition between the two types. If they have not already done so, they need to get PR help, my 2 cents. They also need to get to the bottom of the issue technically and come up with a real long-term fix.

[edwardkaraa]

Thai Leica users may not be making a fuss about this on international forums, but have you read any of the Thai language photo forms?

 

Today, I was at a shopping center in Chiang Mai and, by chance, found a Leica dealer. The store manager confirmed that almost all M-CCD cameras sold in Thailand had to have sensor replacements because of de-lamination. He sounded pretty glum for obvious reasons.

 

BTW, while in the store I looked at the Fuji X-T1, in case I have to be without my M9-P and M-Monochrom for many months when these two cameras have to have their sensors replaced the second time. That is likely to happen in several months because, as I reported above, small de-lamination spots have again started to appear on both cameras. The X-T1 is a dazzling camera in many ways, and is a much better substitute for a Leica (non-full frame) body than the Ricoh M-Module: the EVF is much better (better resolution and no discernible display lag) and manual focus is actually very good in that there is the option of a "dual display" mode that shows the full EVF view and beside it a small magnified "Focus Assist" view that doesn't need focus peeking for accurate focusing. (David Allen Harvey has been using the X-T1 and confirms that manual focus is good, and better than on the X100.) Obviously not as good as the M-series rangefinder, but much better than I thought it would be.

 

That is what I said a few pages back, that almost all M9s in Thailand have went through this process. I visit a few Thai forums, though I don't read Thai very fluently, but there is no uproar, probably because this has been going on for a long time, and everyone got a new sensor, so they don't make a big issue of it. They know they will get another free sensor if the problem reoccurs.

 

I agree about the Fuji. As soon as they make a FF camera with their retro styling, that would be a big threat to Leica.

[fahadm]

Today, I was at a shopping center in Chiang Mai and, by chance, found a Leica dealer. The store manager confirmed that almost all M-CCD cameras sold in Thailand had to have sensor replacements because of de-lamination. He sounded pretty glum for obvious reasons.

 

Leica's lawyers must be advising against Leica issuing a public statement admitting a manufacturing fault in order to protect inventory, protect the dealers and protect Leica shareholders.

 

Imagine the financial impact on Leica from a recall (replacing thousands of sensors, write-off unsold inventory).

 

Now...imagine the impact on sales of the high-margin, premium and "unaffected" M240, M260, etc...

 

Sadly, Leica has no option but to buy time. The owners will get hurt as well. Don't expect a fair solution.

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[Firefly]

Does anyone know if the price of the 2nd hand M9 went down since this thread has started?

 

I have been looking at M9 prices at UK Dealers for a month or so and prices seem stable, one Dealer has marked his down a fraction but he appears to have had them quite a while and they are still within the prices found at other Dealers.

Although the prices seem stable I am quite surprised that none appear to have sold either so it's probably worth revisiting in 3 months to see if there is a minor time related drop or something far more substantial, but it must also be born in mind that rumour has it that the M240 will be replaced in 2015 making the M9 two generations old, which seems to be the point that prices tumble.

 

On another point I have just googled "Leica M9 problems", it would appear that this problem is not only known about on this forum and at some stage one of the magazine's will surely pick up on it, probably their angle will be to talk of the problem and ask Leica for a response, a spokesman for Leica replied to us .............

 

regards to all, Rob

[jaapv]

I don't know about that Jaap... over at RFF there's an active thread now 9 pages in - granted it's not Leica Camera Forum but it's got a significant amount of people over there that are just as perturbed about this as those here.

 

Cheers,

Dave

Thanks. If that thread is basically in the wrong forum, many owners, like me, will not find it.

 

I was just wondering why the hullabaloo has not spread as much as one would expect -yet. Maybe it behaves just like the sensor corrosion itself and needs to gather momentum.

I hope that means that Leica still has a small amount of time for damage control, like by acting on some of the suggestions made here.

 

They must be prepared for the moment that magazines like AP pick this up.