Lenshacker Posted November 30, 2014 Share #401 Posted November 30, 2014 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) The S8612 seems to be a very effective IR filter: Schott S8612 52mm x 1 75mm UV IR Cut Filter Visual Bandpass IR Suppression | eBay The Ebay auction carries a warning about S8612 glass corroding in humid atmosphere, and suggests storing it in a sealed container with desiccant. This seems to be inline with the Schott data sheets. None of the data sheets list corrosion as a function of age, but state problems associated with humid environments and cleaning agents. My links to data sheets are intended to help determine what is the root cause of the problem of sensor corrosion; how to avoid it; and know how likely it is for any given camera to be affected. I also find it interesting that the choice of type of glass for the M8 was different from the most-effective IR absorbing glass available, as S8612 was around for a long time and used in Kodak cameras that came before the M8. As noted, the response of the KAF-10500 is more like the IR cover glass in the "Group 1" Schott glass. "Hooey" or not, I will not be using any wet cleaners on my cameras- M8 included.Best to send in for cleaning if the blower does not work. I am also careful to clean the mounts of lenses before using them, found that was the source of a lot of contamination. Edited November 30, 2014 by Lenshacker Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 30, 2014 Posted November 30, 2014 Hi Lenshacker, Take a look here Strange white spots on M9 sensor?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
M-Mount Posted November 30, 2014 Share #402 Posted November 30, 2014 problems associated with humid environments There are special cases to protect the camera from moisture Bring your Leica underwater--for $8,000 - CNET 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted November 30, 2014 Share #403 Posted November 30, 2014 Indeed! I also am hopeful for the trend showing a decline in UK relative humidity. At the moment averages seem to exceed the recommended maximum for the M9 sensor (70%), but who knows - maybe 30 years in the future? I just need to keep taking advantage of the goodwill arrangement until then... http://ukclimateprojections.metoffice.gov.uk/media.jsp?mediaid=87923 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardkaraa Posted November 30, 2014 Share #404 Posted November 30, 2014 Ok, I have a theory about the corrosion. Since it starts in drop like shapes, around the upper part of the frame (or lower part of the sensor), I suspect very much these are oil drops from the shutter. If they are not promptly cleaned they will start the corrosion, and most users including me, find these drops unremovable after a month or two. So I think it is very important to remove these drops regularly in the first 1000 shots or so. I don't believe for a second methanol is responsible for the corrosion. It dissolves fats and oils, and evaporates completely in less than 2 seconds, leaving no residue. I could be wrong, of course, but it makes perfect sense to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenshacker Posted November 30, 2014 Share #405 Posted November 30, 2014 From the technical advisory from On Semiconductor regarding cleaning procedures: Caution on Cleaning Agents • Use ethanol only to clean the image sensor lid glass. Other solvents can contaminate the glass, attack the resin and sealant, and degrade reliability of the package. • Do not use acetone because it attacks the resin that glues the cover glass to the package. • Do not use methanol due to its toxicity and low quality cleaning properties. ------------ So, at least if the publications by the manufacturer are to be believed- use 100% pure Ethanol. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Morley Posted November 30, 2014 Share #406 Posted November 30, 2014 German law is quite different from British law. Of course not on the client, on the firm making the statement. I notice Jaapv is much more concilitary now than earlier in this thread when like others he was up in arms about this situation, sad to have to wonder has he been bought off or otherwise 'Got at' ? Come on jaapv the rest of us need help. Don:mad: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 30, 2014 Share #407 Posted November 30, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) The addition of the upgrade route has pacified me somewhat. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted November 30, 2014 Share #408 Posted November 30, 2014 The addition of the upgrade route has pacified me somewhat. The route was mentioned rather vaguely in Leica's last pronunciamento. Do you know whether it's purely at Leica's discretion to offer, or whether any owner of an M9 with actual corrosion or simply a faulty sensor (all - since the fault is common to all sensors) can choose to upgrade? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted November 30, 2014 Share #409 Posted November 30, 2014 Ok, I have a theory about the corrosion. I suspect very much these are oil drops from the shutter. If they are not promptly cleaned they will start the corrosion, and most users including me, find these drops unremovable after a month or two. So I think it is very important to remove these drops regularly in the first 1000 shots or so. I don't believe for a second methanol is responsible for the corrosion. It dissolves fats and oils, and evaporates completely in less than 2 seconds, leaving no residue. I could be wrong, of course, but it makes perfect sense to me. Depending on the constituents of the coating and the shutter oil, it's not impossible that it could act like a solvent. As these components are manufactured by different companies, if there wasn't good communication between them, it's possible for such an oversight to happen. And it's been a while since college chemistry class but IIRC both methanol are ethanol are dipoles (like water, but stronger) and thus considered weak organic solvents, so they shouldn't be the culprit. From the technical advisory from On Semiconductor regarding cleaning procedures: Caution on Cleaning Agents • Do not use methanol due to its toxicity and low quality cleaning properties. The toxicity part sounds like a liability issue, in case someone drinks it and sues the sensor manufacturer for not warning against it. The "low quality cleaning properties" is a matter of opinion, as methanol seems to work for most people. Probably stuck in there in case people see through the toxicity argument Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenshacker Posted November 30, 2014 Share #410 Posted November 30, 2014 I wonder why Leica does not use Ethanol rather than “Isopropanol” (isopropyl alcohol)? (from a previous post in this thread.) With all stated, this issue can be minimized in most cases. For those in high humidity areas, consider storing your camera as you would expensive lenses that get attacked by fungus. That's about the closest comparison that I can think of for this; damage to lenses from fungus. Some of the glass used by Canon was much more prone to etching from lubricants used, and from skin oil. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted November 30, 2014 Share #411 Posted November 30, 2014 I reckon the humidity in the UK is at least as high as anywhere, so if folks in SE Asia see more corrosion then I suspect it has to do with a combination of heat and humidity. So if I were going to propose a theory it would be that heat contributes to the liquification of the shutter oil so more of it deposits than in colder climes...and then the humidity keeps it from drying out, or re-wets it continually, which might be creating an acid that attacks the coating. Similar to how the salt residue from battery acid gets re-activated in the presence of water. All simply intuition based on emprical data. If anyone has anything more definitive than that regarding the mechanism, it ought to be Leica. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenshacker Posted November 30, 2014 Share #412 Posted November 30, 2014 Maybe more than you wanted to know- SensorCleaning.com -- What? There are "no good solutions"...really bad pun... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted November 30, 2014 Share #413 Posted November 30, 2014 (edited) Actually that article says that the Visible Dust Smear Away is great for cleaning oil spots, but that it can leave streaks that may need to be cleaned with another product. Which is exactly what I have been doing for years, using Smear Away followed by Sensor Clean. No methanol, no damage, no streaks. Thanks. Think I'll be sticking with what has always worked. Edited November 30, 2014 by bocaburger 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M-Mount Posted November 30, 2014 Share #414 Posted November 30, 2014 Maybe more than you wanted to know- SensorCleaning.com -- What? There are "no good solutions"...really bad pun... So methanol (Eclipse) is highly corrosive? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jevidon Posted December 1, 2014 Share #415 Posted December 1, 2014 (edited) As always, the German version is clear, the translation ambiguous. From the date of the repair. Der ausgetauschte CCD-Sensor ist technisch identisch mit dem in Serienprodukten verbauten Sensor. Ein erneutes Auftreten von Korrosionseffekten kann nicht ausgeschlossen werden. Die erweitere Kulanzregelung über die gesetzliche Gewährleistung hinaus gilt daher auch für den ausgetauschten Sensor ab Reparaturdatum Courtesy of Google translate: The exchanged CCD sensor is technically identical to the built-in serial products sensor. A recurrence of corrosion effects can not be ruled out. Therefore extend the sign of goodwill over the implied warranty also applies to the replaced sensor from the date of repair It couldn't be clearer. What more does one want? Printed in gold leaf maybe? P.S. What do Porsche 997's or 911's have to do with this thread except to show off knowledge that has nothing to do with Leica's except both are German. For those of us who are seriously concerned with this issue, please let's stick to the subject. Edited December 1, 2014 by jevidon added commmentary 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalArts 99 Posted December 1, 2014 Share #416 Posted December 1, 2014 So methanol (Eclipse) is highly corrosive? fwiw, that website is owned by Visible Dust. It's disguised as an infomercial to sell their products. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenshacker Posted December 1, 2014 Share #417 Posted December 1, 2014 So methanol (Eclipse) is highly corrosive? From what I read in the article- Methanol can attack other materials used in the camera body such as plastics and epoxy. Sensor cleaning is definitely easier on a full-spectrum sensor on a digital back. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalArts 99 Posted December 1, 2014 Share #418 Posted December 1, 2014 Actually that article says that the Visible Dust Smear Away is great for cleaning oil spots, but that it can leave streaks that may need to be cleaned with another product. Which is exactly what I have been doing for years, using Smear Away followed by Sensor Clean. No methanol, no damage, no streaks. Thanks. Think I'll be sticking with what has always worked. That's because the website is an informercial for Visible Dust products and owned by them. If you're happy using their products and they work for you, then that's all that really matters. However, they are very expensive and it can be argued that standard off the shelf materials are just as effective. Cleaning a sensor isn't rocket science, although unfortunately maybe it's become so if one owns the M9/ME/MM. btw, Visible dust doesn't sell methanol, but their competitor does. One can also buy it at pretty much any paint or hardware store. Last time I asked, Nikon service uses methanol but that was a while ago. But it is indeed toxic to humans. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenshacker Posted December 1, 2014 Share #419 Posted December 1, 2014 Solvents, deterioration, chemical reactions as side-effects, it's rocket science. Look up Ulmer Leather gaskets treatment Bell X-1E. I'll try some methanol on an old digital camera, now I'm curious. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardkaraa Posted December 1, 2014 Share #420 Posted December 1, 2014 From what I read in the article- Methanol can attack other materials used in the camera body such as plastics and epoxy. Sensor cleaning is definitely easier on a full-spectrum sensor on a digital back. While this is true in theory, in practice that doesn't happen. The methanol is very toxic to humans and attacks plastics and resins, but it evaporates so quickly it doesn't have time to react with anything. Every time I clean my sensor I get a few drops on my fingers and if it was as corrosive as claimed, I would at least feel or see any effects, but there are none. If I'm not mistaken, eclipse was one of the first commercialized methanol solutions for DSLR, it has been around for years, I myself started to use it in 2004 with my first DSLR and it has not affected any camera I have owned. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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