Strange white spots on M9 sensor?

[Fotofanatiker]

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Just picked up my M9 from Leica Singapore after sensor replacement:

 

- I bought my M9 April 2010, means I had to pay 1000SGD/600€, so it is safe to assume that the date of 1st purchase is relevant

- The invoice states "1 year warranty". So it is pretty clear. And pretty annoying. Actually this is hardly acceptable.

- Service guy says the problem cannot be fixed with the current sensor design, so there is a chance that humidity here is going to kill my new sensor again in the future...

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[wattsy]

So, wouldn't it be sensible to ensure your sensor does get corroded before three years is up, or if you don't think 600 Euro is too much go for the four or five year option on the list? Leica will have to give a warranty on repairs, so coming up to the anniversary of the warranty keep recycling the camera from fridge to radiator or whatever it takes. Buy two and overlap the repair cycle then you won't be without one.

 

 

More seriously, you do have a point that the M9 is still essentially a fine camera and, with the future costs discounted into the secondhand selling price, is worth buying. Anyone thinking of buying a Monochrom might also look to capitalise on seller jitters and desperation. When you know the potential liability in advance (€600 takes you up to the five year point – i.e. at least 2017) the camera, at the right price, is well worth buying. What annoys me most about the current situation is not so much the potential costs (after all, these have been capped) it is the delays involved in obtaining a fix. When my own Monochrom was diagnosed with a fault, more than a month went by before any action was taken at all and it has only recently gone to Wetzlar. I'm unlikely to see it again until February which means that over a third of a year will have passed by.

[edwardkaraa]

"• In the case of damage as a result of corrosion, the sensor will be replaced free of charge up to three years following the date of purchase. Leica Camera AG will cover the full costs of replacement, amounting to 1,800 euros plus applicable VAT."

 

So, wouldn't it be sensible to ensure your sensor does get corroded before three years is up, or if you don't think 600 Euro is too much go for the four or five year option on the list? Leica will have to give a warranty on repairs, so coming up to the anniversary of the warranty keep recycling the camera from fridge to radiator or whatever it takes. Buy two and overlap the repair cycle then you won't be without one.

 

But the whole statement is riddled with vagueness. Three years from the purchase by whom? The original owner or just when the camera was first sold? What about Leica Dealers who offer warranties of their own, have they considered what this could mean for them, selling goods with known potential problems, and how would they deal with repairs?

 

I can't really believe this statement has come from Leica as it doesn't seem like it's consequences have been thought through at a higher management level, but their track record for lack of clarity and delay in putting the record straight is also well known. But as it stands if the statement is really as it appears it should be easily possible to knock over 1000 Euro off the price of an M9 right now whether it has corrosion or not, and with only a 600 Euro repair fee that would probably have to include a full CLA, plus a warranty, well what's not to like?

 

(If in doubt I was being a bit facetious with a couple of ideas here, but then again.........)

 

Steve

 

Hahaha! Excellent ideas

 

The repair policy has been silently implemented by Leica since the start of this problem. They just didn't inform the client except on case by case basis.

 

For instance, while they fixed mine for free, a friend whose M9 warranty had just expired had to pay 1000$ (inclusive of shipping fees). I think they tried to keep this issue as discreet as possible, but in late 2013, they were taken by surprise by the numbers of returned cameras, mostly from Asian countries.

[M9reno]

I think the M240 is the first "mature" digital M in the sense that it has no significant flaws affecting its basic RF functions.

 

I remember the olden days when the M9 was described precisely in these terms, as a mature M8.

 

In the big picture we are ALL of us probably early adopters of Leica digital RF technology, and (at least in my own personal case) could have been more sober about this going in.

[M9reno]

Unfortunately the weather of Thailand is one of those factors affecting the sensor cover. As far as i know, the percentage of delaminating sensors is very close to 100% of any M9 variants including the more recent monochrom and M-E.

 

It is true that not all M9s travel to Southeast Asia. But all M9s DO need contact cleaning of their sensors, usually by wet cleaning, which has been widely endorsed in this forum, as Leica has doubtless known from day one. The humidity-corrosion issue (at least as it has so far been reported) is therefore a universal one.

[edwardkaraa]

It is true that not all M9s travel to Southeast Asia. But all M9s DO need contact cleaning of their sensors, usually by wet cleaning, which has been widely endorsed in this forum, as Leica has doubtless known from day one. The humidity-corrosion issue (at least as it has so far been reported) is therefore a universal one.

 

Totally agreed. And the main issue is not dust but oil splatter from the new shutter. In my experience this is unavoidable for the first 1000 shots or so. How would you clean oil spots without a solvent? And how about oil drops themselves? Wouldn't they cause problems by just being there on the glass surface?

[M9reno]

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(€600 takes you up to the five year point – i.e. at least 2017) the camera, at the right price, is well worth buying.

 

€600!

 

 

I have a bunch £4 rolls of film downstairs that won't expire until 2018!!!

[wlaidlaw]

 

When my own Monochrom was diagnosed with a fault, more than a month went by before any action was taken at all and it has only recently gone to Wetzlar. I'm unlikely to see it again until February which means that over a third of a year will have passed by.

 

Ian,

 

Was it a sensor problem?

 

Wilson

[andybarton]

 

More seriously, you do have a point that the M9 is still essentially a fine camera and, with the future costs discounted into the secondhand selling price, is worth buying.

 

I look forward to all of our authorised dealers and eBay-hopefuls knocking £1000 off their asking prices by the end of the week...

 

Can you honestly see this happening? Maybe it will have to, to shift stock, once this problem and its solution becomes widely known

[M9reno]

I look forward to all of our authorised dealers and eBay-hopefuls knocking £1000 off their asking prices by the end of the week...

 

Can you honestly see this happening? Maybe it will have to, to shift stock, once this problem and its solution becomes widely known

 

Prices inevitably must plummet if all of this is true.

 

But if they did, say to £1000, would you still buy second-hand a camera:

- whose sensor cannot be safely contact-cleaned (presumably even by technicians), and thus will eventually accumulate so much dust that...

- optimal aperture cannot be smaller than f/5.6, or include skies, and which...

- you will worry about taking to Thailand, or anywhere tropical, or semi-tropical... or even in the UK outside on a particularly rainy day... or about bringing indoors from the cold in winter...

- and when its sensor finally delaminates, and repair is too expensive, will have *zero* re-sale value.

 

?

 

I have one of these cameras, and I would feel badly selling it to you right now, at any price.

Edited November 26, 2014 by M9reno

[andybarton]

That's OK. I have already said that I'm not going to buy one

 

My Nikon D700 is about 5 1/2 years old. I have never, ever cleaned the sensor, nor blown anything at it. It does have some sort of ultrasonic dust removal system, that works very well though.

 

Thailand or anywhere sub-tropical have never been on my list of places to visit, but it is ridiculous that a sensor should fail due to humidity. As you say, temperate places can be humid too.

 

This is the sort of problem that could push a company under, either Leica or Truesense. I wonder what the contractual arrangements were between the two parties in the eventuality that the sensors failed due to a manufacturing problem.

[M-Mount]

- you will worry about taking to Thailand, or anywhere tropical, or semi-tropical... or even in the UK outside on a particularly rainy day... or about bringing indoors from the cold in winter...

 

There are so many beautiful places. The Gobi desert would be fine...

[edwardkaraa]

There are so many beautiful places. The Gobi desert would be fine...

 

LOL

[M9reno]

Indeed, it's hard to see how they could respond.

 

- Goodwill repairs? Best option for their image with existing and prospective clients. But probably hugely expensive, given the number of sensors out there. We are not talking here about the 'small number/percentage' quoted by Leica CS (presumably the number that have already been reported to them), but about the total number, if this is a design issue affecting all M9 sensors (40,000 of them?).

 

- Apportion repair costs between Leica and customers along a timescale? This seems the option they have chosen for now. Problem is it will generate bad will, publicity etc. Crucially, the repair seems to be with the same kind of sensor, so still vulnerable to humidity, no contact-cleaning, etc. Just repeats the problem.

 

- Repair/replace defective sensors with re-designed CCDs? They might be thinking of this, but I doubt they will have the time or resources to spare. I would be happy with this outcome, but am most definitely not holding my breath.

 

- Reverse policy and offer M9 users a trade-up option to the M 240, following M8 precedent? Embarrassing and expensive (again 40,000 sensors out there, which risk death if contact cleaned).

 

So, who knows?

[M9reno]

There are so many beautiful places. The Gobi desert would be fine...

 

Yes, but a little bit sandy. You could never change the lens!!

[M-Mount]

 

- Reverse policy and offer M9 users a trade-up option to the M 240, following M8 precedent? Embarrassing and expensive (again 40,000 sensors out there, which risk death if contact cleaned).

 

At what cost? Would the M9 sensor manufacturer agree?

[edwardkaraa]

Leica should sue the supplier and make him pay for the repairs.

[250swb]

(again 40,000 sensors out there, which risk death if contact cleaned).

 

So, who knows?

 

Yes but they only risk death, it's not certain, and as we all know wet cleans are usually only necessary when the camera is new, then the oil stops being thrown off the shutter and all that is then needed is non-wet cleaning anyway. So you can reduce the odds considerably for users who aren't living in countries with high humidity and if the others only use a tiny drop of cleaning fluid and don't slosh it around the edges.

 

Steve

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[wattsy]

Ian,

 

 

 

Was it a sensor problem?

 

 

 

Wilson

 

 

Yes.

[wattsy]

I look forward to all of our authorised dealers and eBay-hopefuls knocking £1000 off their asking prices by the end of the week...

 

Can you honestly see this happening? Maybe it will have to, to shift stock, once this problem and its solution becomes widely known

 

 

Once the problem becomes common knowledge I don't think sellers will have any choice.