edwardkaraa Posted November 24, 2014 Share #241 Posted November 24, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Can you recommend a dry cabinet in any case? Thanks. They are sold under different brandnames depending on the location. I use Hui Tong brand but if I need to buy a new one I will get an Ailite (AILITE). Sorry the text is in Thai but you can get the general idea. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 Hi edwardkaraa, Take a look here Strange white spots on M9 sensor?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted November 24, 2014 Share #242 Posted November 24, 2014 (edited) Well, this makes me less than happy. In the spirit of this discussion I put my M9 and MM under the microscope and - off to Wetzlar, both of them. On the MM it looked like a little scratch- but it was a straight line of bubbles, the M9 is dotted in miniscule spots which don't yet show up on the images... The MM is no problem, being from 2012, but the M9 dates back to September 2009.....:mad: So my advice to all owners is - inspect your sensor properly, preferably under a microscope if you have access, even if nothing shows up on the image....Time is ticking now, with the new policy. Edited November 24, 2014 by jaapv 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted November 24, 2014 Share #243 Posted November 24, 2014 Thanks Jaap, have you also inspected your M240? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 24, 2014 Share #244 Posted November 24, 2014 No, it comes back from Wetzlar (CLA) next week. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 24, 2014 Share #245 Posted November 24, 2014 I can tell you, if the M9 is indeed affected I am not going to (as the Dutch saying goes) throw bad money after good money. I am hoping against hope that it is some kind of cleanable thing and it does not show up (yet) In the end it will be a display brick... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardkaraa Posted November 24, 2014 Share #246 Posted November 24, 2014 Thanks Jaap, have you also inspected your M240? No worries, the M 240 doesn't have this kind of problem. In fact, after 3 wet cleanings, mainly due to oil drops from the shutter, I didn't have to clean the sensor for several months now. The dust doesn't seem to stick and is easily blown away with just a bulb blower. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted November 24, 2014 Share #247 Posted November 24, 2014 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) Jaap: Please keep us updated, and very best of luck. As far as my 2011 M9, I'm sticking my head in the sand on this one. I could go out now and start shooting skies at f/16, and check for problems. Most likely I would just find dirt, which absent wet-cleaning I will likely not be able to get rid of anyway, so why bother. In fact, I think I might take Leica's (RIDICULOUS) advice and start making a habit of never shooting at medium or small apertures. If/when delamination happens, I will refuse to pay 600, 1200, or 1500 Euros for a replacement sensor, so I may spot-remove as long as I can on Photoshop, or simply retire the M9 at that point... In the spirit of this discussion, having for a long time vacillated on getting a Jobo CPP3+lift, I have ten minutes ago placed an order with Firstcall in the UK. Perhaps a bit impulsive, but I doubt I will regret it. For the past several years I have used Leica film cameras for b/w, and the M9 for colour. Now I'm phasing back into film all the way, and cutting out the labs altogether. Anyway, there goes a big chunk of the cash that would have been sunk on further Leica digital, whether a Monochrom, or a Typ 240, or whatever. Yesterday the M8, today the M9, tomorrow...what? I have just lost trust. I love photography and Leica, but the modern company have really put me off for good this time. Edited November 24, 2014 by M9reno 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted November 24, 2014 Share #248 Posted November 24, 2014 My son and I yesterday cleaned the sensor of my M9 that I bought in Decemcer of 2009. We had to use all the known methods, blower, brush, lollipop, wet cleaning. But it's now cleaner than it ever was. His eyes are good enough that he could see unaided the dust spots. Not having a microscope the sensor and the images it produces look fine to the naked eye or through a loupe. So I will continue to use my M9 and hope my so far good fortune continues and the M9 doesn't develop lepracy here in the typically dry air in New Mexico. In the winter humidity indoors is as low as 15%. Hopefully Leica sees the wisdom to come clean on this issue, make official statements, and announce an appropriate policy based on actuually addressing the issue and not prolonging it unnecessarily. That's what is requied in order to restore for me confidence in their future products. For my Leica R lenses I will get one of these new Sony 5-axis IBIS cameras when they become available in 2015. I hope Sony's IBIS works as well as Olympus'. The latter seems like magic. I hope my M9 can be maintained in the future if that should become necessary. Though I am looking foward to a future M camera that isn't afflicted by any of the current problems of their M8, M9, or even M240 product lines. However, I will only buy a future Leica camera if Leica improves their policies and practicies. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M-Mount Posted November 24, 2014 Share #249 Posted November 24, 2014 under a microscope if you have access what magnification? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted November 24, 2014 Share #250 Posted November 24, 2014 My son and I yesterday cleaned the sensor of my M9 that I bought in Decemcer of 2009. We had to use all the known methods, blower, brush, lollipop, wet cleaning. I imagine the brush (e.g. Arctic Butterfly) might be a good companion to the rocket blower from now on. But still not as effective as wet-cleaning. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted November 24, 2014 Share #251 Posted November 24, 2014 We couldn't get the sensor clean without lollipop and wet cleaning. The brush helped as well beyond the blower. Typically I only use blower and brush for the M9. All my other new cameras have automatic cleaning builtin. It seems effective, good enough but not perfect. Of course, I would never touch a sensor of a camera that has IBIS. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 24, 2014 Share #252 Posted November 24, 2014 what magnification? Not too much About 10x operating microscope. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dante Posted November 24, 2014 Share #253 Posted November 24, 2014 No worries, the M 240 doesn't have this kind of problem. In fact, after 3 wet cleanings, mainly due to oil drops from the shutter, I didn't have to clean the sensor for several months now. The dust doesn't seem to stick and is easily blown away with just a bulb blower. MRC coating? Dante Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brucek Posted November 24, 2014 Share #254 Posted November 24, 2014 I'm still waiting to hear if the replacement sensors have the same problem. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 24, 2014 Share #255 Posted November 24, 2014 I would be surprised if they hadn't I even wonder if they fall under the same regime.... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
geotrupede Posted November 24, 2014 Share #256 Posted November 24, 2014 M8 stain policy offered an upgrade route (I well remember that as I have an M8 with stain). M8 stain was however not a deadly defect as the camera could still operate. Simply the preview was not as nice as it should have been. We were offered the M9 route. (Irony...) Regarding the M9 issue, I would quite welcome the possibility to move to M240 at a 'small' price, even if my M9P is not that old. The unacceptable proposition is to offer a sensor replacement when we all know (do we?) that is going to fail. This does not sound honest. Either Leica has completely lost any trace of history and ethos or perhaps the problem is not so certain and spread as we are thinking. About humidity, having read the Schott specification (see my earlier posts with links to the various PDFs), seems to me more an issue of other chemicals (not necessarily water, but acid and alkaline solutions). Please have a read before you buy a cabinet to store your cameras alongside that box of cohiba.... I mentioned earlier that the glass used should have a protective coating. If the coating is there there should not be a problem. This sounds like a gross design error. If the coating is very thin and can be wiped by friction during wet cleaning, this could be a problem which could not be foreseen at day 1. Since all cameras are cleaned (come cleaned from factory) the issue could simply start at the origin without anybody noticing. Maybe Leica only recently realised this. Perhaps the cameras are all dry cleaned now? Anyway, taking the same position from other posters, it is rather disappointing that we find out of this (is this true after all?) issue from a random post on a web site. We paid true and good money to be part of the Leica family. We are most likely registered with their database and they have addresses. Emails, etc. We should not be here guessing what the issue is and whether there will be an issue. I demand to receive direct clarification of this. Official. Personal. Direct. Clear. Hope Leica does the right thing and write each of us an email with a full detailed summary of this bizarre incident. And hopefully all of this is just internet gossip. I truly hope so... G 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted November 24, 2014 Share #257 Posted November 24, 2014 I would be surprised if they hadn't I even wonder if they fall under the same regime.... Indeed, it is strange that they do not focus on the age of the *sensor* (but instead on the age of the *camera*) in their price quotes for repair. Presumably the new sensor will be covered (like all other repair work done by Leica) by a one-year's guarantee from the date of the replacement, but no more. And, after that one-year period, any further replacements would be charged, as before, according to the age of the camera. But that is just my reading of the post that details the policy... It would be nice to have something more definitively worded. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted November 25, 2014 Share #258 Posted November 25, 2014 (edited) On the MM it looked like a little scratch- but it was a straight line of bubbles That sounds like the defect on my Monochrom sensor. I first noticed it in my photos earlier this summer and assumed it was a very fine hair or fibre on the sensor. When I took it to Leica Mayfair to be cleaned I was initially informed it had been scratched but it has since been acknowledged to be a defect of some sort. Other than the lengthy wait for a repair, what annoys me most about this situation is that Leica do not seem to have a permanent fix for this problem. They are essentially proposing to replace a faulty component with another another component that appears to have the same design fault. I'm not sure how this squares with EU consumer laws or the UK Sale of Goods Act. As much as I like my Monochrom it seems to have been irreversibly compromised in that it can no longer be contact cleaned and is liable to further defects of the kind that has already manifested itself. My feeling is that other avenues of redress – a refund or future replacement with a M240-based Monochrom (assuming that is coming in 2015) should at least be on the table. Edited November 25, 2014 by wattsy 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted November 25, 2014 Share #259 Posted November 25, 2014 Thinking things over I'm still a bit tempted by the M9-P but I want to get some real, non-hysterical information about the situation. Is this problem intrinsic to all the M9 sensors, or is it a subset? Is there any way to tell if the sensor is developing the problem by visually inspecting it in a way that's realistic while in a store environment? I can't take a microscope along with me (not that I even have one), but can the problem be seen with the naked eye or with a normal illuminated magnifier? What's the long-term prognosis? I am a pretty addicted lens-wide-open shooter - so would I even notice the problem in the medium term (6-7 years)? Or would there come a stage when the dots cover the entire sensor? All very confusing, as M9s seem to be buying and selling just as usual - even new ones in the form of the M-E. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 25, 2014 Share #260 Posted November 25, 2014 (edited) According to information I received today by Leica CS, only a limited number of cameras are affected, in a small percentage. The Internet magnifying glass appears to be in full swing. I URGE EVERYBODY TO USE COMMON SENSE. IF YOU HAVE SPOTS ON YOUR SENSOR THAT APPEAR TO BE UNREMOVEABLE , INSPECT THE SENSOR VERY CAREFULLY USING PROPER VIEWING TOOLS, OR EVEN BETTER, HAVE YOUR SENSOR CLEANED BY A LEICA DEALER. HE CAN ADVISE YOU WHETHER FURTHER ACTION IS REQUIRED. IF EVERYBODY STARTS SENDING EVERY DUSTY SENSOR TO WETZLAR, CS WILL BE OVERWHELMED WITHIN DAYS. THIS WILL RESULT IN LONG AND UNNECESSARY WAITING TIMES FOR THE FEW THAT WILL NEED A REPAIR. Edited November 25, 2014 by jaapv 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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