mwilliamsphotography Posted November 16, 2013 Share #101 Posted November 16, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Marc, I've seen some of these pictures of yours before when you have posted them and they still look plastic and lack any red skin tone. I'm sure if I where a bride I'd like the look, but I'm not a fan of what you have done to these skin tones. Sorry. As far as my remake, this was dropping the jpeg into LR and adjusting for the yellow. I think it looks pretty good for what it started as and literally 30 seconds. It wasn't even my photo to begin with. And, remember they get resized and compressed again when going back to the web. But, the color is a lot better. No need to be sorry Rick ... different strokes for different folks. Perhaps differences in monitors also? Actually, I didn't do much separate PP to the skin tones ... just processed the RAW image and tweaked the orange saturation a bit ...two from a S2P and two from a M9 ... both of which tend to the magenta skew. These were recompressed twice because I made them the wrong size and had to do them over. So, I hear you. On my monitor, and in the prints, the skin tones aren't lacking reds at all, (in fact, the fire engine girl's skin is overly red from all the red ambient) ... these look like real flesh even when you hold your hand next to the large prints and view them under an Ott Light. Probably why I think the M240 shots looks like people are wearing caked on Carnival make-up. Way over the top. When you adjust it, the life gets sucked right out of the skin. Have yet to see a human looking shot from this camera ... but my buddy may have found the solution for those who also have a taste issue with the M240 color. - Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 16, 2013 Posted November 16, 2013 Hi mwilliamsphotography, Take a look here a week with the M240 and pretty disillusioned. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
mwilliamsphotography Posted November 16, 2013 Share #102 Posted November 16, 2013 Not sure what "Plastic" means either. I tend to not use skin smoothing programs unless really necessary ... here's a crop from one of the above shots which (other than web resize artifacts) is pretty much what these people looked like. - Marc Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/216252-a-week-with-the-m240-and-pretty-disillusioned%E2%80%8E/?do=findComment&comment=2466702'>More sharing options...
Rick Posted November 16, 2013 Share #103 Posted November 16, 2013 Marc, I'd love to get any suggestions at all. I don't always like the M color. I have some of the best color skin tones from the 5DII and the M9(under natural light). I am not always crazy about the skin tones from my RX1. It is best with no adjustment most of the time. But, it has that lack of capillary color sort of lack of red tone a lot of the time. Next, your pictures on the web look really good. They just look a little comatose. Maybe, I just want to see a bit more saturation. I like to pump up saturation on travel photos, but that is a whole different thing. On people all that goes out the door. But, anyway... I wouldn't mind a bit more saturation of the skin tones in your pictures, especially the first shot. But, don't read me wrong. Your posted pictures are really good. I spent 10 years calibrating CRT projectors with calibration software and colorimeters. Most people (all people) have no idea what true color looks like until their projector is calibrated. Anyway, I have a pretty good idea what good color looks like. But, I can be fooled when my visual system looks at something... then the calibrated image comes up and it looks wrong until your eye has a chance to "see" it. Once you see corrected, calibrated color you start to get real picky about green and red and how much blue is in the mix. Makes it hard to watch movies. At home I have a 9 inch calibrated CRT projector with a corrected green tube for better skin tones projected onto a 10' horizontal studio screen. It is easy to get used to that sort of color. The phosphors of these CRT RGB projectors got so good at the end of this technology. The M isn't even close to this kind of color. Nothing I've seen digital is. Everything is just very good. Digital to me is still like shaved legs on a man... smooth, yes... but, very disconcerting. Which is why I'm glad you are actually going to get an M240 and maybe you can give me some clues how to get better color and hopefully we can understand what the M is doing. The other guy on this forum that took color and skin tones seriously was Jamie who is the English wedding photographer that loved his 5DIII and R 50/1.4. He was really good with color and skin tones. I wonder what happened to him? Rick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted November 16, 2013 Share #104 Posted November 16, 2013 My last post was before I saw your enlargement. That actually looks really good. Just for the hell of it, or just for me, could you pump the saturation up on your first shot a tiny bit. That also tends to expose any problems in the mix. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted November 16, 2013 Share #105 Posted November 16, 2013 I know, very cryptic and suspicious ... but what he had to say blew my mind, and is so controversial sounding I have to try it first and then back it up with images. Stay tuned. -Marc Oh for Gods sake just tell us. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 16, 2013 Share #106 Posted November 16, 2013 So we can try it… If you really want to match M9 images it is not about colours and AWB. After all, no two images record he same light except in the studio. It just takes adding a nearly invisible amount of grain in postprocessing to simulate the light irregularity in the M9 images - there you have the real difference between CCD and CMOS.The output of the pixels is more balanced on a CMOS. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted November 16, 2013 Share #107 Posted November 16, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) I understand you are showing how good the new AWB firmware is and I agree it is very good. If, you wanted to deal with the yellow light falling on her right side it can be done using primaries. These sort of primary changes can be utilized in all sorts of artificial lighting conditions. For example, on your picture, try desaturating the Green Primary to -30 and change the Green Primary Hue to +10. Add some general saturation. I don't have the raw so you will want to experiment a little. Watch the yellow on the right side of her face. [ATTACH]408679[/ATTACH] Sorry Rick ...... this girl doesn't look like that .... she does not have bog standard pink cauacasian skin ..... and there is also a fair bit of make-up. This is much as I remember her in the setting we had ...... and the walls really were that colour in the particular room we used (an old Tudor Country House). The DNG in LR looks significantly better. It was just an example for Marc using Custom WB (no PP) ..... which I think works pretty well. I take my hat off to any one doing Portrait or Wedding Photography They are on a hiding to nothing as peoples perceptions of how they look bear no resemblance to reality. In 10 years I have yet to take a photo (with ANY camera) of my partner that she is happy with Maybe I'm just a crap photographer.... but they look ok to me Skin is one area where expectations, perception and reality are difficult to reconcile....... with both subjects and photographers .... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted November 16, 2013 Share #108 Posted November 16, 2013 Digital to me is still like shaved legs on a man... smooth, yes... but, very disconcerting.Rick Thanks for letting me know. I don't routinely feel them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rawcs Posted November 16, 2013 Share #109 Posted November 16, 2013 They are on a hiding to nothing as peoples perceptions of how they look bear no resemblance to reality. .... A universal response. I put this down to the fact that people regularly see a reversed / inverted view of their faces in a mirror, so when they see the real view of themselves in a photograph it doesn't quite 'look right'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted November 16, 2013 Share #110 Posted November 16, 2013 Oh for Gods sake just tell us. No. : -) Just in case it is not as dramatic as he claims ... which is why I want to try it first. -Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted November 16, 2013 Share #111 Posted November 16, 2013 My last post was before I saw your enlargement. That actually looks really good. Just for the hell of it, or just for me, could you pump the saturation up on your first shot a tiny bit. That also tends to expose any problems in the mix. One thing I just realized is that many of my wedding images are color tweaked after being placed into an Album environment ... often employing a color page background ... the Bride and Little Flower Girls shot is one of them ... and on my monitor boosting the saturation gets to be a bit much. See below. I've also attached one of my "Fitness" shots of a figure competitor who competes in the older category ... (believe it or not she is a 44 year old Mother of three). Skin is rendered the way I like it, with skin texture quite apparent in the 22" print I made for her home gym ... and the skin tones match her complexion quite well. Complexion is the variable that only the photographer knows. These clients typically do not want much retouching done for these type shots. They want to see everything for evaluation. WB was for strobes in a dark studio against a neutral background, so no ambient contamination to deal with. I plan on shooting some M240 studio shots which eliminates all ambient factors as a base to evaluate from. Not sure how the color is coming across on various monitors, but on mine the prints match almost exactly ... which is my primary concern ... including at the lab that prints my Albums ... they tell me that I'm one of the few clients that they can print files for without doing any CC adjustments. That's my priority ... consistency in prints because in the end that's what I sell ... to date no one has paid me a cent for a sub one meg, compressed web image : -) Frankly, all this was easier when I shot film ... except of course in mixed lighting ... now that was a nightmare. - Marc Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/216252-a-week-with-the-m240-and-pretty-disillusioned%E2%80%8E/?do=findComment&comment=2466881'>More sharing options...
rscheffler Posted November 19, 2013 Share #112 Posted November 19, 2013 The other guy on this forum that took color and skin tones seriously was Jamie who is the English wedding photographer that loved his 5DIII and R 50/1.4. He was really good with color and skin tones. I wonder what happened to him? Rick You're thinking of Jamie Roberts? He's a Canadian photographer and his location, IIRC, was listed as Cambridge, which would easily be assumed as being Cambridge, UK, whereas it's actually the city in Ontario. Looks like he's still shooting weddings and using some Leica, if his blog is any indication... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted November 19, 2013 Share #113 Posted November 19, 2013 No. : -) Just in case it is not as dramatic as he claims ... which is why I want to try it first. -Marc So, this is one of your professional friends you are always claiming that has been telling you the color is off? Or, is this someone else that isn't a real good source? Marc, you have me worried. Now you are concerned he has been exaggerating? You have been using your professional friends as your experts when you claiming for the last 7-months that you know professionals that think the color is off. This is why I never buy into this stuff about I know professionals that didn't like the color or have sold the camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted November 21, 2013 Share #114 Posted November 21, 2013 So, this is one of your professional friends you are always claiming that has been telling you the color is off? Or, is this someone else that isn't a real good source? Marc, you have me worried. Now you are concerned he has been exaggerating? You have been using your professional friends as your experts when you claiming for the last 7-months that you know professionals that think the color is off. This is why I never buy into this stuff about I know professionals that didn't like the color or have sold the camera. I do not recall saying I know professional photographers who didn't like the color and sold the camera. Someone else perhaps? The fellow I referenced is a very good photographer whom I respect quite a bit, and unlike me, he has used the M240. His opinion is that the color is off, and he tried something that he thought helped. His first hand opinion, not mine ... but it is an interesting notion to pursue myself. My demo M240 arrives tomorrow and I'll give it a try ... including trying his suggestion. We'll see. - Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted November 22, 2013 Share #115 Posted November 22, 2013 I do not recall saying I know professional photographers who didn't like the color and sold the camera. Someone else perhaps?[/Quote] Perhaps it was someone else, but I seem to remember you saying that there existed those that didn't want to post here and had cancelled their orders. No? I thought it it was about the time you expressed your fear that the sensor itself was an issue and that started a whole hunt about the color filters and other such stuff. The fellow I referenced is a very good photographer whom I respect quite a bit, and unlike me, he has used the M240. His opinion is that the color is off, and he tried something that he thought helped. His first hand opinion, not mine ... but it is an interesting notion to pursue myself. My demo M240 arrives tomorrow and I'll give it a try ... including trying his suggestion. We'll see. - Marc I'm all ears. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted November 22, 2013 Share #116 Posted November 22, 2013 And I'm all eye. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted November 23, 2013 Share #117 Posted November 23, 2013 Question for you wedding photographers: are clients still buying print albums, and if so, aren't they viewing them under all kinds of lightingl? Or do wedding couples these days all view your work on the same high-end color-matched monitors you guys have? I'm not suggesting that obvious color casts would go unnoticed, but is being super-critical about color a necessary part of a successful wedding pro's business plan, or is it more of an extension of your personal sense of perfectionism (not saying that's bad!)? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.G. Posted November 23, 2013 Share #118 Posted November 23, 2013 I agree with the original post. I have an M9 and an M240 - after a few weeks with the M240 I am back shooting the M9. While there are a few things the M240 does better (ISO, shutter sound) I prefer the output from the M9 and the simplicity of the shooting experience. Neither camera is better or worse - it comes down to personal preference & I happen to prefer the M9. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted November 23, 2013 Share #119 Posted November 23, 2013 Perhaps it was someone else, but I seem to remember you saying that there existed those that didn't want to post here and had cancelled their orders. No? I thought it it was about the time you expressed your fear that the sensor itself was an issue and that started a whole hunt about the color filters and other such stuff. I'm all ears. Wasn't me that I specifically recall ... but it is possible because I know those who did express those thoughts ... but I think they expressed them on-line. I got the M240 Demo yesterday ... charged the battery, updated the firmware, and did one simple test that makes all this color discussion a moot point. My pro photographer friend was right. See my separate thread on the subject. - Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardkaraa Posted November 23, 2013 Share #120 Posted November 23, 2013 Wasn't me that I specifically recall ... but it is possible because I know those who did express those thoughts ... but I think they expressed them on-line. I got the M240 Demo yesterday ... charged the battery, updated the firmware, and did one simple test that makes all this color discussion a moot point. My pro photographer friend was right. See my separate thread on the subject. - Marc Marc, it would be great to read your opinion on the color output of the M9 vs M, and perhaps the A7r that you've tried recently. Many thanks in advance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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