Strap lugs still an issue

[quadraticadder]

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Wow, sounds like an awesome trip. Can you tell me if the screws holding the lugs broke, and left screw parts in the lugs, or did they come loose? Maybe Leica needs better lock nuts.

Best and thanks,

Steve

[Guest Emile de Leon]

Anyone want to buy a Leica car...it sure looks pretty in the driveway..when its actually workin...

Or maybe..a Leica doctor..to do surgery...ready w/scalpel..to work on your gall bladder..

Betta have good insurance..you a gonna need it..hahaha!

[algrove]

After discussion I thought it was best for me to hold onto the lugless camera until the replacement arrives. I have gotten used to the bore of carrying it about without a strap over my last two weeks in Namibia with either the R28-90 or R80-200 plus the APO extension tube.

 

Based on current availability pretty much worldwide, you should see a replacement like next week.

[jaapv]

Oh goody! My second favorite illogical counter;

 

"I can find other sh1t companies too - so there! Leica win."

No me that brought the corny car comparison up….

[Paul J]

I don't see the big deal. Design and manufacturing issues happen to many companies and many products. Recalls and design issues are common amongst cameras, I've had the situation arise from the biggest companies in the business, mirrors falling off, cpu's frying. So long as they are replacing or fixing anything damaged then it's all good.

 

There comes a point where you need to step away from the moaning and bitching and be happy with your decision to use a small company like Leica. They deserve some slack with that kind of customer service that really looks after their clients, IMO.

[dwbell]

I don't see the big deal. Design and manufacturing issues happen to many companies and many products. Recalls and design issues are common amongst cameras, I've had the situation arise from the biggest companies in the business, mirrors falling off, cpu's frying. So long as they are replacing or fixing anything damaged then it's all good.

 

There comes a point where you need to step away from the moaning and bitching and be happy with your decision to use a small company like Leica. They deserve some slack with that kind of customer service that really looks after their clients, IMO.

 

True. They are trying so hard. Maybe a hug would help? Big group hug?

 

For the money they charge, and the BS they spout, the customer - every single customer, deserves a solid, fully functioning as advertised camera, first time, straight out of the box. Anything else in this range is just pathetic. 'Small' company or not. By the way. They posted sales of €248.8M 2010-2011. This is not cottage industry stuff, mom and pop working in a garage. 'Small' is relative. Nit 'big' like Sony, I agree, but big enough to deliver.

[Guest Emile de Leon]

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Sooner or later..probably sooner..some Japanese company..is a going to come up with a good reliable digital rangefinder..and then the true story will be told..

Think...A7r or such..with a rangefinder..

Not too hard to imagine..as they steal more of Leicas base away from them..

There comes a point in time when a lemon or 2..morphs into just a tsunami of QC negligence..costing the company cash..as well as plethora of people who patronize the company..no matter the loyalty..

In the 70's..American automobile manufacturers QC went into the dumpster..then the Japanese saw this and came on strong..and the US auto industry..even up to now..has never gotten over it..

People left in droves..and didnt came back..

Sure there are recalls etc..even on Japanese and German cars..but in comparison..a Leica is a simple object...you would think they would have had enough time to get it right by now..but it only seems to be getting worse..

Truthfully..I hope they get it right soon..and not let their customers do QC for them..as many software companies do nowadays..

They just have to tighten up their game..if not their lugs..

And the time is also coming soon..where there wont be the buyers from the baby boom generation keeping them going anymore..very soon..

In the end..its up to them..to put out a reliable product..or not..

 

jaapv..are you employed by Leica..?

[Delcredere]

Wow, sounds like an awesome trip. Can you tell me if the screws holding the lugs broke, and left screw parts in the lugs, or did they come loose? Maybe Leica needs better lock nuts.

Best and thanks,

Steve

 

The left hand lug screws both broke leaving pins in the holes. The right hand lug screws disappeared leaving two tiny holes. They did not come loose. The failure was without warning.

 

It was a wonderful trip but having to hold the camera all the time without a strap was tedious. Having the multi task hand grip would have helped but it was, naturally, not available. Also the EVF (needed for the long R lenses) frequently froze during absorbing shooting conditions even though the ambient temperature was well below 40 degrees. All very frustrating and not what I expected from such an expensive camera.

[Paul J]

True. They are trying so hard. Maybe a hug would help? Big group hug?

 

For the money they charge, and the BS they spout, the customer - every single customer, deserves a solid, fully functioning as advertised camera, first time, straight out of the box. Anything else in this range is just pathetic. 'Small' company or not. By the way. They posted sales of €248.8M 2010-2011. This is not cottage industry stuff, mom and pop working in a garage. 'Small' is relative. Nit 'big' like Sony, I agree, but big enough to deliver.

 

Here's a snippet of my repair history - My Pentax ME Super in the 80's had electronic buttons that fried easily and needed to be replaced. I went through two cameras before I eventually moved on to a Canon EOS, which had issues, my My Canon 5D's mirror, for instance, fell off because they used an glue that wasn't up to the task, the AF was always hit and miss too, My Hasselblad H CPU fried a week after owning it, my Mamiya RZ was a pig with it's crank handle wear. They were a rubbish design and the company never did anything about it. The only solution was to file a crevice in the handle to allow the crank to be pushed more forward as the gears wore when the camera was out of warranty. They blamed me for being too rough with it! My Fuji GX-680 paint flaked off from a manufacturing issue. Ugh, the list goes on I think.

 

You only have to pay a visit to other forums and find how many disillusioned Nikon, Canon, Pentax, Fuji etc etc etc there are. No manufacturer is safe from design and manufacturing issues and technical failures. It's how they deal with the customer when the problems arise, that's what counts, and some companies don't seem to care and try to squirm out of things.

[algrove]

Just a technique I use when walking around with gear. I keep it in my Think Tank Speed Freak V2.0 until needed. It is very deep and holds my M with 28-90 mounted on one side and I can still zip the lid if needed. I use it on the waist for hands free trekking, but you can also use a shoulder strap with it.

 

I have no affiliation with Think Tank. Just like some of their products.

[jaapv]

True. They are trying so hard. Maybe a hug would help? Big group hug?

 

For the money they charge, and the BS they spout, the customer - every single customer, deserves a solid, fully functioning as advertised camera, first time, straight out of the box. Anything else in this range is just pathetic. 'Small' company or not. By the way. They posted sales of €248.8M 2010-2011. This is not cottage industry stuff, mom and pop working in a garage. 'Small' is relative. Nit 'big' like Sony, I agree, but big enough to deliver.

 

So why are you still buying this expensive trash? You would be better off buying robot-assembled gear. Robots don’t make random errors like human beings - one can pull every 10.000th off the line and tear it apart for quality control to eliminate systematic errors with a better than 99% result. Much more your cup of tea I should think - seriously.

There is a fundamental difference with a hand-built process. To get the same 99%+ you would need to station an inspector behind each and every worker. It is quite feasible but the camera would be double the price.

[quadraticadder]

The left hand lug screws both broke leaving pins in the holes. The right hand lug screws disappeared leaving two tiny holes. They did not come loose. The failure was without warning.

 

It was a wonderful trip but having to hold the camera all the time without a strap was tedious. Having the multi task hand grip would have helped but it was, naturally, not available. Also the EVF (needed for the long R lenses) frequently froze during absorbing shooting conditions even though the ambient temperature was well below 40 degrees. All very frustrating and not what I expected from such an expensive camera.

 

Glad you enjoyed the trip, despite the frustrations the Leica caused. I think I better cancel my order and wait a year to see if Leica debuggs the M 240. Would the m-e be more stable, should I get that instead.

Best,

Steve

[jaapv]

The M-E goes through the same production process as the M. I would rate your chances of getting one with something wrong about equal - and rather small.

The Internet is a magnifying glass and forums like this are heavily biased towards problems.

[algrove]

The M-E goes through the same production process as the M. I would rate your chances of getting one with something wrong about equal - and rather small.

The Internet is a magnifying glass and forums like this are heavily biased towards problems.

 

Jaap-

 

I understand your comment and feelings. I came into discovering this forum after getting my M9 and most of the issues were solved with it (at least with my experience with it after taking 45k images with 3 different M9/M9P) by then. So to me this was an enlightening forum to hear what others suggested about this and that. I have learned mostly positive things on this site and still do.

 

Now perhaps I am naive due to my timing of joining here, but not until the M came along have I witnessed such an array of problems new owners are having with this specific M camera.

 

Leica has been putting lug nuts on M bodies for 50 years. What happened in Portugal? They have a new factory and hired some new people. Either lack of proper training or supply issues or under speccing lug nut materials or whatever has changed recently.

 

We both know the lock up issue is a pain in the a--. If the camera cannot get out of my way while shooting then it is not the typical Leica M since previous models did not make me power off and then on to take a photo irregardless of the temperature.

 

Taking this issue further, for me, the subsequent EVF brightness problems following the lock up are even worse, since I generally have to power the camera off and on about 3 times in order to get EVF brightness back to "normal". This is because the first EVF view after lockup would be about 25% normal brightness and each off/on improves brightness until it is finally back to normal levels after about 3 tries.

 

Sure this not good PR for Leica, but something in their process must have changed between M9/ME models and the M model which caused the lug nut issue. As for the lockup issue, now we seem to believe it was just not beta tested long enough or thoroughly enough for this serious issue to surface.

 

I want this issue solved as we all want it solved, but this time I trust Leica will take their time to fix it correctly. This fix alone could cost them big time if it is discovered that a FW update will not solve it once and for all.

[quadraticadder]

The M-E goes through the same production process as the M. I would rate your chances of getting one with something wrong about equal - and rather small.

The Internet is a magnifying glass and forums like this are heavily biased towards problems.

 

As far as I can tell, the issues with copies of the M are as follows.

 

1. Lug mount nuts break.

 

One example has showed up on internet so far since the Leica recall. Awful for the user (OP) but it may be isolated. Time will tell. Another recall may be required. Next model M will have redone lugs. Either bad steel got into the screws or Leica underestimated the stress of carrying around R lenses.

 

 

2. Lens mount leaks light during long exposures with heavy, unsupported lenses.

 

Is preventable (black hairband around mount, or support the lens) and arguably an extreme situation. Leica will likely strengthen mount on next M now that heavy R lenses can be used.

 

 

3. Printer noise when recording video at low noise.

 

I don't know how common this is, but an external mic always gives higher fidelity sound in video recordings. If a few cameras have the problem, then they will be fixed. If they all have them, then that is the nature of the system. Maybe a firmware fix is possible. I suspect Olympus or Panasonic did the electronics/back display/EVF circuitry for the M under contract for Leica. That's probably why the Olympus EV2 works. So Olympus or Panasonic share some of the blame for this one.

 

4. Blackouts using EVF.

 

Firmware or recall - Leica will fix, eventually. Again, Olympus or Panasonic probably built the electronic guts of the M.

 

5. Italian flag with wide angle lenses.

 

Seems less after Firmware update.

 

6. Slow startup.

 

It is what it is.

 

7. Delayed or missed button presses.

 

Reported by Ken Rockwell in latest review (under construction). Haven't heard much from others, likely a firmware fix.

 

8. Missing or phantom shots in continuous mode.

 

Reported by KR, Card issue? Firmware fix?

 

9. Slow operation with EVF.

 

It is what it is.

 

 

So 2, 3 (maybe), 6, and 8 are likely performance characteristics of the camera that won't go away. Personally, I could live with that. I will wait until the M I ordered comes in, go hold it, and then decide.

 

Best,

Steve

[quadraticadder]

So 2, 3 (maybe), 6, and 9, I meant 9, not 8.

 

Best,

Steve

[quadraticadder]

Here's a snippet of my repair history - My Pentax ME Super in the 80's had electronic buttons that fried easily and needed to be replaced. I went through two cameras before I eventually moved on to a Canon EOS, which had issues, my My Canon 5D's mirror, for instance, fell off because they used an glue that wasn't up to the task, the AF was always hit and miss too, My Hasselblad H CPU fried a week after owning it, my Mamiya RZ was a pig with it's crank handle wear. They were a rubbish design and the company never did anything about it. The only solution was to file a crevice in the handle to allow the crank to be pushed more forward as the gears wore when the camera was out of warranty. They blamed me for being too rough with it! My Fuji GX-680 paint flaked off from a manufacturing issue. Ugh, the list goes on I think.

 

You only have to pay a visit to other forums and find how many disillusioned Nikon, Canon, Pentax, Fuji etc etc etc there are. No manufacturer is safe from design and manufacturing issues and technical failures. It's how they deal with the customer when the problems arise, that's what counts, and some companies don't seem to care and try to squirm out of things.

 

Don't forget the people who are royally pissed off at Nikon for the shutter oil spray on the sensors of the D600.

Upgraded in one year to the D610, without any reason or admission given by Nikon.....

[algrove]

OK, but did the Nikon customers pay $7k for their camera bodies?

[charlesphoto99]

Don't forget the people who are royally pissed off at Nikon for the shutter oil spray on the sensors of the D600.

Upgraded in one year to the D610, without any reason or admission given by Nikon.....

 

Never had a speck of oil on my D600....

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[quadraticadder]

OK, but did the Nikon customers pay $7k for their camera bodies?

 

No, but the problems in quality control/design faults with the D600 shutter spraying oil on the sensor are *very* bad, and forced an important DSLR model for the company to be replaced with a new model in one year. The D200 had some sort of strange banding around bright objects when it first came out, the D800e had the left focus issue.

 

Your point about cost is not trivial, by any means. Leica cameras are damned pricey. And we all question our sanity after buying one. But my point is every camera company has problems with new releases. The 7K you/we paid for a Leica is actually about 3K if you sell it in 2 to 3 years for 4 K. So ownership costs you about 1K a year in depreciation for the first few years. M8 to M9 to M upgrades every two to three years is a common ownership pathway. One of the reasons I want a Leica is because its largely hand assembled and because it will have a decent resale value. And damned that viewfinder/rangefinder, camera feel, and shutter are sweeeeetttt! Hand assembled actually means it will probably have more bugs than computerized/robotic assembly. A lot of the cost of an M likely goes into development cost of the custom sensor. Leica has to improve its QC and timing. No doubt. Maybe this will happen when the new factory comes online, maybe not. But we all know we can resell our cameras and get decent money for them. Lenses too.

Best,

Steve