Leica stubborness will hurt sales

[eronald]

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Instead, Zeiss and CV should be working to develop plug-ins which can remove the cyan in post processing when their lenses are used. If it can be done in camera firmware, it can certainly be done in post processing. Time for them to bring something to the party...

 

No, it cannot be done if the info is not there any more. Leica recodes the Raw data to 8 bits before writing out the file, and therefore has substantially more data to work with in-camera than its rivals with a plugin.

 

Edmund

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[Guest guy_mancuso]

Oliver what lenses do you have today that are not coded. I'm ignoring the posts above this and I agree let's keep it civil. But reason I am asking is maybe there is a way to list some of these lenses that are uncoded and with the help of the forum find a way to make them work correctly.

 

Sample CV 15mm I know works great with the leica 39mm but the B+W also looks extremely good.

 

We all know coding them is the best way to go automatically , i know we all agree on that so lets take a pro active approach here and figure the best way to do that.

 

Most lenses will take the B+W there is only one for sure that the Leica works best and that is the WATE and maybe the 21mm Zeiss and 21 mm Leica. After these things look pretty good.

 

It's easier to figure out what you have and figure a way to use them to thebest advantage. Even if Leica said okay we will do the menu options let's faceit it will be at least a month away and you know I will have to test it along with other beta testers. That takes time and the big question is do you want to wait or try something now.

 

Reading all your posts you hit on coding,filters and menu options. i guess this begs the question what is stopping you today from working correctly. I ask this to help you

[hammam]

C/V's are screwmount lenses, and they need M mount adaptors (except one of their 35s, I think). What about them developing coded M adaptors jointly with Leica? At least for their wide angles, from 21 to 28, say. They would open their market to M8 users, and Leica could get more M8 buyers who might otherwise be afraid to be forced to buy Leica lenses, or who just downright prefer C/V lenses. And Zeiss could build coded lenses as well.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Well that has been said but Zeiss and Cosina need to buy the right to do that with a agreement with leica on there copyright of the code. The problem is i don't see any of them jumping on this and frankly it is to there advantage to do so.

 

You know there is a saying there are several ways to skin a cat. Well that is very true here

[hammam]

Oliver what lenses do you have today that are not coded. I'm ignoring the posts above this and I agree let's keep it civil. But reason I am asking is maybe there is a way to list some of these lenses that are uncoded and with the help of the forum find a way to make them work correctly.

 

Sample CV 15mm I know works great with the leica 39mm but the B+W also looks extremely good.

 

We all know coding them is the best way to go automatically , i know we all agree on that so lets take a pro active approach here and figure the best way to do that.

 

Most lenses will take the B+W there is only one for sure that the Leica works best and that is the WATE and maybe the 21mm Zeiss and 21 mm Leica. After these things look pretty good.

 

It's easier to figure out what you have and figure a way to use them to thebest advantage. Even if Leica said okay we will do the menu options let's faceit it will be at least a month away and you know I will have to test it along with other beta testers. That takes time and the big question is do you want to wait or try something now.

 

Reading all your posts you hit on coding,filters and menu options. i guess this begs the question what is stopping you today from working correctly. I ask this to help you

 

Thank you, Guy, I appreciate. Yes, I'd love to try something now. The problem is the coding of my two favorite lenses, the C/V 21/4 and the C/V 28/1.9. I have B+W filters on both, and they do a good job at limiting IR infection. But I get the dreaded cyan drift, because I can't code them. And somebody has even pointed that you just can't code the C/V M mount (adaptor). Even if the specs wouldn't be exactly the same as the Leica lenses, I figured I could get at least some result at removing a good deal of the cyan corners.

[hankg]

No, it cannot be done if the info is not there any more. Leica recodes the Raw data to 8 bits before writing out the file, and therefore has substantially more data to work with in-camera than its rivals with a plugin.

 

Edmund

 

It is entirley possible that there are better or at least equally effective alternatives to manually selectable profiles. Like providing the option of a RAW file that would be more amenable to doing the corrections in post. This however may be far more complicated for Leica to implement then just giving users access to profiles that are already in firmware. A work around that requires less of Leica's resources to develop and has zero impact on those that don't need it/want it would seem a more likely choice.

 

I have found the Leica DNG to be incredibly flexible in terms of its ability to withstand extreme corrections without exhibiting any artifacts or posterization. So it is possible that a filter that would fix cyan drift in post is possible as even in extreme cases there is data in some chanels that could be used to replace detail lost in the blown magenta edges.

[sdai]

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Well that has been said but Zeiss and Cosina need to buy the right to do that with a agreement with leica on there copyright of the code. The problem is i don't see any of them jumping on this and frankly it is to there advantage to do so.

I believe Zeiss/CV will introduce their own digital rangefinder sooner or later, as many have already pointed out, it makes no business sense for Leica to support third parties lenses, from the same perspective, it makes no sense for Zeiss and CV to support Leica's cameras either. LOL

[Guest guy_mancuso]

What size filters are they, trying to remember there both screw mounts correct and need adapters to mount. It sound like the same adpter is need the 90mm or 135mm which would both bring up the 28-90 frame lines which would be what you want , correct. Than code for the 28 cron for the 28 1.9 which let's assume would be thebest choice because the speed of the lenses. the 21mm mybe better to code for the WATE but a test would be best on that to be sure. Than filters the 28mm should be okay with the B=W the 21mm maybe a issue and need the Leica. so what size are they

[sdai]

I have found the Leica DNG to be incredibly flexible in terms of its ability to withstand extreme corrections without exhibiting any artifacts or posterization. So it is possible that a filter that would fix cyan drift in post is possible as even in extreme cases there is data in some chanels that could be used to replace detail lost in the blown magenta edges.

This is some area DXO could tackle with ... essentially all optics artifacts, vignetting, distortion, color shift, color fringing etc. can be fixed with a lens profile.

 

I wouldn't be suprised that they'll come up with a set of products tailor made for the M8 once Leica's "solutions" are all in place, but as I've pointed out in my previous posts, all of us could avoid the hassle of manually writing down the info ie. which lenses have been used for which images if Leica would allow input of the data by the photographers on our own.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I believe Zeiss/CV will introduce their own digital rangefinder sooner or later, as many have already pointed out, it makes no business sense for Leica to support third parties lenses, from the same perspective, it makes no sense for Zeiss and CV to support Leica's cameras either. LOL

 

Well that maybe true Simon and we can't discount they may have there own but how far away is that also and what about there sales today. frankly this would take them nothing to do and setup a milling post or two on the factory floor. really not that incredible hard.

 

Robert did it with a drill press and John can do it also in a real milling shop without more equipment , so technically it is not that hard. Politics is a whole another story

[hankg]

Well that has been said but Zeiss and Cosina need to buy the right to do that with a agreement with leica on there copyright of the code. The problem is i don't see any of them jumping on this and frankly it is to there advantage to do so.

 

You know there is a saying there are several ways to skin a cat. Well that is very true here

Who knows if any of the 3 parties are interested or if they are, how long it would take to work out agreements. Sure it would be great but no guarantee even if Leica was willing that they would be able to work out agreements.

 

For the CV's the adapters can be easily coded. The problem is offering a commercial service to do it would violate Leica's patent. So that leaves everyone on their own.

 

Any post solution will need the lens identified in exif. So at least Leica would have to give the user the ability to plug in an identity for their lens to be written to the EXIF. That they could manually call up like user profiles.

 

For myself it may be a month or 2 before I can get my codable lenses coded. Some lenses that I am not sure I'll keep I don't want to code until I know they are keepers. It would be great if I could get max quality out of the camera with my Leica lenses (which do have Leica supported profiles) in the meantime.

[sdai]

Well that maybe true Simon and we can't discount they may have there own but how far away is that also and what about there sales today. frankly this would take them nothing to do and setup a milling post or two on the factory floor. really not that incredible hard.

 

Robert did it with a drill press and John can do it also in a real milling shop without more equipment , so technically it is not that hard. Politics is a whole another story

 

I agree with you, Guy ... but I also think Sean is right on the patent thing, once you put this thing into mass production and marketing then you'll hit a bummer.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

This is some area DXO could tackle with ... essentially all optics artifacts, vignetting, distortion, color shift, color fringing etc. can be fixed with a lens profile.

 

I wouldn't be suprised that they'll come up with a set of products tailor made for the M8 once Leica's "solutions" are all in place, but as I've pointed out in my previous posts, all of us could avoid the hassle of manually writing down the info ie. which lenses have been used for which images if Leica would allow input of the data by the photographers on our own.

 

 

Yes and raw procssors like ACR and C1 can do this also and ACR almost does today. This is certainly a option out there that can work and Pano Tools does. Oliver this is a option that you may want to look at also. nothing is going to be perfect today but there are some options today though.

[arthury]

Nikon's very recently released D40 has been configured so it only allows AF S lenses

this means that other series Nikon glass, and of course 3rd party glass wont work in AF

think about that, Nikon the #2 dSLR manufacturer actually disabled this ability

even for their own cheaper lenses

 

what you are requiring of Leica, is to be able to replicate the coding in other lenses

which is adding a service that wasnt there in the first place, and is only for 3rd party glass

 

What you said is true. But, Canon has long done this decades ago when they switched over to EOS. All EOS lenses focusing are driven by on-len motors --- i.e. AF-S.

 

Many Sigma lenses, which are sold to mount on Nikon & Canon these days also come with HSM (AF-S).

 

The successful and adaptable 3rd-party lens-maker will move fast if they want to earn money and when they see a profitable market. If Zeiss sees $$$ to be earned, they will code their lenses unless Leica patented it. I see possible 3 reasons why Zeiss is not doing it:

1. Zeiss is just as slow in meeting market needs
   
2. lens-coding was patented by Leica
   
3. Zeiss made a calculated decision not to pursue the M8 market: it's too small to be worth it

A couple of the above reasons could by well be shared by other 3rd-party lens maker like CV.

[marknorton]

No, it cannot be done if the info is not there any more. Leica recodes the Raw data to 8 bits before writing out the file, and therefore has substantially more data to work with in-camera than its rivals with a plugin.

 

Edmund

 

Edmund, I didn't say it would be perfect but neither too will be relying on the optimisation fine-tuned for another lens altogehter.

[marknorton]

I have to say I smile at the commercial naievity here. What possible incentive do Leica have to assist in supporting competitor lenses, only to see a proportion of their own lens business walk out the door in the process? They stand to lose far more in lens sales than they will ever get back in extra M8 sales, especially with (as yet unknown) plans for new lenses down the road.

 

If you have bought CV or Zeiss lenses, you should be talking to them to come up with a solution, not bugging Leica to give up the commercial advantage the lens coding gives them. Perhaps you're finding that CV and Zeiss are not interested in helping you, which tells you all you need to know.

[egibaud]

Opinions of users on all sides of any issue should be welcome here as this is the purpose of this forum. But these sort of rude and personal attacks should be banned. If you want to get down in the mud and trade insults online in red capital letters I suggest you visit photo.net.

 

The pros and cons of this have been restated repeatedly. So I won't restate what I have already said. If their are those who wish to continue this discussion they should do so in a civil manner and stick to making the case for their viewpoint as the usefullness of this forum is dependent on everyone behaving in a mature and professional manner.

 

One thing everyone who supports and participates in this forum should agree on is a policy of zero tolerance for infantile rude and insulting behaviour.

 

I apologize for losing my temper. I should not fall into an insulting behaviour although other insult our common sense using civilized words. They state post after post the same thing although people come up with answers and solution they obviously do not read or understand or just prefer to ignore so they can come up with the same nagging again and again.

 

Anyway I'll follow others' advice about not reading posts that are just there to wind us up.

 

Sorry again for that.

 

Eric

[sdai]

If you have bought CV or Zeiss lenses, you should be talking to them to come up with a solution, not bugging Leica to give up the commercial advantage the lens coding gives them. Perhaps you're finding that CV and Zeiss are not interested in helping you, which tells you all you need to know.

 

But you're only half right ... so forget about ZM and CV, just count how many Leica's own lenses were left without support.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[egibaud]

You don't have to read me, do you? Just skip..

 

I apologize for losing my temper reading your posts. I'll follow your advice and skip your posts.

 

Eric

[LJL]

Wow....what a thread.....meant in a good way. Was not going to jump into this fray, but could not resist supporting and quesitoning some comments and Ideas.

 

In my humble perspective, Leica appears to be doing quite a bit to help rectify a somewhat tripping start with the M8. That being said, and recognizing that they can and will run their company as they deem appropriate, there are some issues that are still a bit hard to digest. There is now some pretty clear evidence that the in-camera processing algorithms being used do a vey nice job on images taken with coded and filtered lenses. There are somewhat separate issues between the coding for correction of specific lens behaviors, and this was in place before the "discovery" of the IR contamination problems. The red/cyan drift issue, as pointed out by many that is now a problem BECAUSE folks are using the scarce filters available, seems to be something that Leica really needs to address with more help and concern. They have advertised from the start about the ability to use nearly all M-mount lenses. That is still true. However, the filter/drift issue is something new that has developed sort of after the fact, and after a fair number of camera sales.

 

With due respect to Mark Norton, who always has quite cogent comments, Leica has already been reapiing a pretty decent harvest from purchasers of the M8, and could continue along that line for quite some time. Yes, they also want to sell a lot of lenses, and they appear to be doing that....along with a lot of newly needed filters! It does not seem as though they would be giving away anything by living up to their market-speak of allowing the M8 to utilize the large range of existing M-mount lenses. Will they have to work "automatically" like newer coded lenses do? Well, if they can be coded, that will be nice (oh....another revenue stream for coding.....), but the least that could be done for customers is to provide a user accessible menu driven lens table that will help correct the cyan problems newly introduced by recommended filtering, especially in wider angled lenses.

 

The tests are not completed or published by others yet, but the cyan drift problem appears to be made much more "liveable" with simple in-camera corrections that mimic those for Leica's existing focal lengths. There may be additional issues that would tremendously benefit from other algorithm use, such as vignetting, but folks using anything other than code-specific Leica lenses will just have the option/choice of gambling on the shot. Let's face it, when we placed an uncoded CV, Zeiss or other lens on a M-mount film camera, we were not expecting that lens to have the look and behavior of a specific Leica lens. However, we were also not seeing or expecting color contamination issues due to use of a recommeded filter either.

 

From my perspective, the Leica M8 is a great camera that is capable of capturing some great images. Many, many folks continue to prove that daily. If one wants to use the camera for color work, they really need to use filters, and should seriously consider finding some way to mimic the coding that Leica is employing now. Will it be perfect? Will a 21/2.8 coding from Leica work well on a Zeiss lens? For the lens specific corrections related to vignetting and such, it may not be perfect, but it will help. For the cyan contamination, newly introduced long after Leica has sold and continues to sell lots of M8 bodies and now filters, the Leica in-camera corrections for UV/IR filter use are probably very close to what most will need for more color correct capture. If one needs the best that is offered, then please use the Leica lenses with coding and Leica filters. That seems reasonable. If one wants to use the camera for outstanding shots with other lenses, non-coded, non-Leica, they should be able to, AT LEAST with respect to correcting the cyan problem newly introduced by using recommended filters. This does not seem like Leica is giving anything up in this process at all. Most of us bought the M8, and many others may buy the M8 thinking that they can easily utilize their existing collection of M-mount lenses. Fantastic. Still true. However, in order to shoot acceptable color, one needs to use filters AND one should have those in-camera color corrections for using those filters made readily available to them.

 

If Leica does not provide something along these lines, I do think that folks will not continue buying the M8 and lots of lenses. Personally, if I were not able to code some of my lenses to utilize the in-camera corrections, I probably would abandon using the M8, except with one or two coded lense and the free filters. I have not put my M8 into full pro production mode yet, and may not get a second or third body for those tasks, until I see a clearer path toward how some of these "after the initial fact" problems are being handled. If I must use only Leica coded lenses and Leica filters, I am a lot less likely to continue supporting Leica, as that is contrary to what they originally promised and continue to market for the M8. I want to be able to use the lenses of my choosing, and will gamble with all of the other issues about correction and "look" and everything else, BUT NOT with respect to how colors need to be easily corrected in-camera because I need to use filters also.

 

And with respect to the comments about doing the adjustments in post....personally, that is the wrong way to think about this. The more that can be done to the captured bits BEFORE they are written to a file for later adjustment and use, especially with respect to this cyan contamination issue, the better. While many, if not most of us shoot RAW/DNG files, not everybody does, and that may still be a huge part of Leica's exisiting and future sales base. I ran into several guys this weekend that were thinking about the M8, but are not interested in sending off their lenses for coding, nor do they want to buy new coded lenses. They are not pros. They are casual users, yet their buying decisions are based on how easy the camera is to use and how usable their existing equipment is. They probably are not too concerned with vignetting, but they are appalled about color and especially cyan contaminations from using filters. They were even quite unhappy about having to use filters to start, but understand that trade-off. They are not liking the other trade-off of not being able to get good color capture without new and expesnive processes or gear. They shoot JPEGs. They want to be able to print what they shoot easily, not having to use two, three or more special computer tools to make corrections to the images. These are the kinds of folks that account for a lot of Leica sales. That has been true for all camera companies. The pros may drive feature demand, but they usaully do not drive lots sales, exceept for recommending to others. If a more casual user is confronted with a very complicated and increasingly more expensive set of options only, they will not buy into the M8. Leica wanted to make it great and keep it relatively simple....a menu for selecting a limited number of focal lengths to apply in-camera color corrections for uncoded lenses, Leica or non-Leica, for use with recommeded filters can only help Leica at this point.

 

Just my thinking on this.

 

LJ