JimKasson Posted January 18, 2014 Share #4141 Posted January 18, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Although I can't say it will ever affect me in what I tend to photo it would be handy if they modified the shutter action in firmware to minimise the potential issues ..... Mike Collette, of Betterlight, has done a study that indicates that a firmware delta to separate the shutter rewinding operation from the first curtain release may not solve the problem. If this is true, it may be the reason that the Sony folks are stonewalling Lloyd Chambers. Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 Hi JimKasson, Take a look here The Sony A7 thread [Merged]. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
dierk Posted January 18, 2014 Share #4142 Posted January 18, 2014 hi guys, excuse me if I bump in...did someone have tested the A7r and had some trouble with micro blurred images due to the "strong" shutter movement? I was planning on using the camera body for interior work using the TS-E lenses I own... on a tripod. Thanks for the answers! Piero You find a set of pictures of the A7R made with the Canon 17mm TS-E on the new Metabones adapter here in my flickr album: Canon 17mm TS-E tilt/shift - a set on Flickr Most of the images are stitched from 2 or 3 shifted images. For me the ideal combo for architecture in and outdoors. As this is the Leica forum, you find also images made with the TS-E on the Leica M9 and MM. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
piero Posted January 19, 2014 Share #4143 Posted January 19, 2014 Dierk, did you experience shutter vibration to generate micro blur? thank you! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimKasson Posted January 19, 2014 Share #4144 Posted January 19, 2014 Dierk, did you experience shutter vibration to generate micro blur? With a 17mm lens? Not likely. I've never seen it with a lens shorter than 35mm. I suppose it's possible, but... Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted January 19, 2014 Share #4145 Posted January 19, 2014 The A7R was mostly useless for me with my R Tele lenses because of shutter vibration. This shutter is as loud as a pro DSLR shutter and you can feel the vibration. I would not count on using this camera with long lenses as is... among a list of other problems including bad ISO at 4000 and up, with banding... not to mention the slow low-light EFV lag. Surprised nobody is bothered by this. This camera is not a substitute for the M240 and long R lenses and wide (less than 75mm) R-lenses. Sorry. Use this camera with the limited two Sony system lenses and it will be fine if you enjoy working with limitations. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted January 19, 2014 Share #4146 Posted January 19, 2014 The A7R was mostly useless for me with my R Tele lenses because of shutter vibration. This shutter is as loud as a pro DSLR shutter and you can feel the vibration. I would not count on using this camera with long lenses as is... among a list of other problems including bad ISO at 4000 and up, with banding... not to mention the slow low-light EFV lag. Surprised nobody is bothered by this. This camera is not a substitute for the M240 and long R lenses and wide (less than 75mm) R-lenses. Sorry. Use this camera with the limited two Sony system lenses and it will be fine if you enjoy working with limitations. Link to samples of ISO banding above ISO 4000 would be helpful, rather than just taking your word for it. I haven't seen any banding even at ISO 12,800, but would be interested in seeing some untouched RAW files that did exhibit the effect. BTW, Digalloyd now also reports shutter slap with the M240 … a new level of anal-ization has been breached. - Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
piero Posted January 19, 2014 Share #4147 Posted January 19, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) With a 17mm lens? Not likely. I've never seen it with a lens shorter than 35mm. I suppose it's possible, but... Jim On a tripod, especially, any vibration is not desirable. One thing is a camera shake due to the hands that are holding it. i.e. with a wide angle. Another thing is a kick from within the camera. On a tripod... on 36mpx file... very often I need to have the music turned off in the shops I photograph as the bass can generate a vibration visible on the files on 3/4 seconds exposures. And I obviously have the mirror lock up function activated. Also, if you hold the TS-E lenses in your hands you may feel a slight but present play right at the TS barrel junction area. Which adds another "no vibration please" to the wish list. In most of my pictures I have objects at one meter from the camera, and all the way to 6/8 meters, left and right. i.e.: Emporio Armani - Piero De Grossi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
teeraash Posted January 19, 2014 Share #4148 Posted January 19, 2014 I have both the M240 and A7R. Lot of banding above iso3200 for the former and none for the latter even at iso6400 with some push processing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
piero Posted January 19, 2014 Share #4149 Posted January 19, 2014 (...)BTW, Digalloyd now also reports shutter slap with the M240 … a new level of anal-ization has been breached. - Marc the more detailed the pictures, the more visible the flaws. Of the cameras! not only the one's of the photographers. It reminds me of the troubles with nailing down focus with my early M8, M8.2 and M9. And all the 'talking' with the Tech Dept of Leica (Italy and Solms) explaining to me that it was probably due to my 'young' experience with the Leica system. in the 'good old days' we use to form an opinion about a particular lens by watching carefully the 8x10 chromes.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dierk Posted January 19, 2014 Share #4150 Posted January 19, 2014 Dierk,did you experience shutter vibration to generate micro blur? thank you! Piero, I am looking at 1:1 magnification, but I did not find any problems jet - but I am not seeking for problems either. If I like, what I got, I am satisfied :-) (BTW I love very large prints) If you go to the album with the A7R images, you will find many stills made with the Makro-Elmarit-R and the Micro Nikkor 85mm on tripod, but only in web sizes. Sony A7R - a set on Flickr For comparison of Sony A7R and Leica M Monocrom I just loaded test images in full resolution. Test 21mm M lenses Leica M Monochrom vs. Sony A7R (full res.) - a set on Flickr I used my 21mm lenses: the Leica Tri-Elmar-M 16-18-21/4@21mm, the Leica Super-Elmar-M 21mm/3.4 and the Zeiss C-Biogon 21mm/4.5 No filter used on the M Monochrom. I normally use orange or red filter. To make the images comparable I downscaled them with CS6 to the size of the M Monochrom and sharpened with unsharp masking 80/5/30 (I am not a specialist in sharpening) I also loaded two images with processing with Nik Silver Efex PRO2 to show the results after some PP. Please judge yourself :-) dierk PS: Piero, I just visited your gallery and you could hear me say Mmmm all the time! Fantastic images, all of them! Thanks for the pleasure :-) I have to come back there with some extra time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
piero Posted January 19, 2014 Share #4151 Posted January 19, 2014 Dierk, thanks for sharing the informations!!! Great opportunity!! Thanks really Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
piero Posted January 19, 2014 Share #4152 Posted January 19, 2014 Jim, thanks for the info and the links. really! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_livsey Posted January 19, 2014 Share #4153 Posted January 19, 2014 Whether the A7R will yield nice edges and corners with your tilt-shift lenses is a whole different question (at any shutter speed), I would expect. Another Stupid Camera Test: IQ 260 / A7r / 5d2 / Epic A7r with tilt shift in comparison with top flight pro gear by a pro photographer, the thread does go on but is very interesting, at least to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimKasson Posted January 19, 2014 Share #4154 Posted January 19, 2014 BTW, Digalloyd now also reports shutter slap with the M240 … a new level of anal-ization has been breached. The difference is that there's a simple and easy workaround in the M240: leave the metering in classic mode, and turn off LV before the shot. I treat the LV button on the M240 the same way as the mirror up/down button on a Hasselblad H-series camera. Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
piero Posted January 19, 2014 Share #4155 Posted January 19, 2014 I have a very difficult background regarding the words sharpness, resolving power and resolution. As I said, the usual benchmark was an 8x10 chrome and an Apo-Ronar... When I gradually shifted into digital I had to compromise on bulkiness in favour of lightness, and speed as all clients were in a digital frenzy.. they didn't have the slightest clue of what was all about but they had been told digital was fast. hahahahahahahahhahahahahahah So I started using FF and Shift lenses. The 17 TS-E is a fairly decent lens. The 24 MKl was a bliss in film days and a nightmare in CMOS era. The 24MKll is a resonable effort to give a decent lens to the PRO in rapidly changing CMOS and the like. I've done a quick test shot with the A7r of a friend using the TS-E 24MKll and it is 'ok'. The advantage of a much lighter camera, some more MPX and the swivel back screen with maybe more accurate level indication is the main reason of my enquiry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted January 19, 2014 Share #4156 Posted January 19, 2014 Link to samples of ISO banding above ISO 4000 would be helpful, rather than just taking your word for it. I haven't seen any banding even at ISO 12,800, but would be interested in seeing some untouched RAW files that did exhibit the effect. BTW, Digalloyd now also reports shutter slap with the M240 … a new level of anal-ization has been breached. - Marc Look at Sein Reid's site. He has ISO shots that show banding as low as 4000. (I suppose it could be the curtain? But, the luminance noise is horrible). Not as bad as the M240 and not as good as the A7R. Or, Check the A7R out for a weekend and become an expert. As far as M240 shutter vibration goes, I agree Lloyd reached a new level of "anal-ization." I repeated Digilloyd's experiment and found the opposite. I had less blur with LV. Even if there is shutter blur with the M240 it is almost impossible to detect (look at Lloyds test) compared to the terrible and completely unusable blur caused in some instances by the A7R's shutter. Also, with the M240 you have the option to shoot without LV and eliminate the shutter vibration if you are concerned about a possible, but not proven, issue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted January 19, 2014 Share #4157 Posted January 19, 2014 Look at Sein Reid's site. He has ISO shots that show banding as low as 4000. (I suppose it could be the curtain? But, the luminance noise is horrible). Not as bad as the M240 and not as good as the A7R. Or, Check the A7R out for a weekend and become an expert. As far as M240 shutter vibration goes, I agree Lloyd reached a new level of "anal-ization." I repeated Digilloyd's experiment and found the opposite. I had less blur with LV. Even if there is shutter blur with the M240 it is almost impossible to detect (look at Lloyds test) compared to the terrible and completely unusable blur caused in some instances by the A7R's shutter. Also, with the M240 you have the option to shoot without LV and eliminate the shutter vibration if you are concerned about a possible, but not proven, issue. Should read, not as good as the RX1. The RX1 is excellent. If, Sony doesn't continue this line it will quite possibly become a classic. Great color and high ISO as well as a phenomenal lens. As travel guy I have contemplated just taking a couple of these on vacation travel to simplify and remove any stress of carrying around keeping an eye on expensive Leica gear. This would move even more towards my Zen of travel mantra. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
imants Posted January 19, 2014 Share #4158 Posted January 19, 2014 Anyone who names themselves after a camera cannot really be taken seriously let alone have a unbiased view Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_livsey Posted January 19, 2014 Share #4159 Posted January 19, 2014 Anyone who names themselves after a camera cannot really be taken seriously let alone have a unbiased view Victor Hasselblad ? Although that was the other way around "I am the camera" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted January 19, 2014 Share #4160 Posted January 19, 2014 Anyone who names themselves after a camera cannot really be taken seriously let alone have a unbiased view Hi Imants, good to see you posting again. I have owned the A7R (have you?) and liked it. I also own a Sony RX1 and love it. I've owned Canon 5D cameras from the original 5D through the 5DII and they are excellent cameras. Also, owned all of the digital M cameras over the last 7 years. I agree it is hard to be unbiased with cameras that one has owned. Oh, my avatar name has been fun because, it brings out the trolls. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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