The Sony A7 thread [Merged]

[AlanG]

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Point taken and understood.

 

From reading your various posts, I gather that you spend quite a bit of time setting up your shots, especially when using the TS lenses. Wouldn't some of the display enhancements/options offered by ML be of use to you?

 

No. I shoot tethered and control the camera via Capture One. I can study the image at 100% on my laptop. When not tethered, I often use the magnified view to check focus before or after taking a shot with manual focus lenses. Capture One has focus peaking and a magnified window that an assistant or digital tech could monitor while shooting a live or moving subject. I often bracket exposures because old film habits are hard to break and I am probably unnecessarily critical about getting exposure so accurate.. I shoot raw and don't use many of the features of Canon's firmware either.

 

So for most of my work, I really could have a very simple camera that only works on manual exposure and has few adjustments to the files, etc. I use some of the other features when shooting in AF mode and for special needs. I shoot much more from the hip with the Nex 6 and use a lot of the features in that camera.

 

I think ML would be useful if I shot videos with the camera. I can't say I could use the still features except I'd like to have an intervalometer... but not on the Canon but on a Nex 3N or Sony rx100 so I could fly a small camera on my quadcopter for stills. I have to go to a heavier 5R or Nex 6 to use an IR triggered remote control via my transmitter.

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[zlatkob]

The innovation comes from Fujifilm. The idea is to selectively get the light from different sides of microlenses. While Fujifilm masked out one half of a pixel, Canon reads both sides of each pixel independently (no masking).

If I invent the car and you invent a faster car... well, you need to have a great marketing team to make people believe you invented the car (it clearly can be done ).

 

 

 

Thanks for the list. It helps explaining my point better.

I believe that none of the above is really innovative, as these are all products using combinations of previous inventions.

 

E.g.: If I invent the car and the fridge, and you "invent" a car that has a fridge, then you may even get a patent and sell lots of cars-with-fridge, but you didn't bring real technology innovation to the world.

 

And the marketing guys will always do their job. I am sure we'll soon hear about "The first macro zoom fisheye for a crop sensor DSLR with more than 9 lens elements"

 

Nevertheless, all of those Canon products I listed are providing better solutions for photographers right now. That is real and practical innovation — shipped out and being used every day.

 

Intelligent evolution of existing products takes a lot of effort and is very rewarding for both manufacturers and photographers. Regardless of the patent, where is Fuji's equivalent of the 70D (with dual pixel PDAF sensor) that I can buy and use right now? Kodak was very innovative when they invented the digital camera, but where is Kodak's equivalent to the amazing 1DX right now? There isn't one. If naked innovation were king, we would all now be using the Lytro camera (mentioned by Alan above).

 

Most innovative products are "products using combinations of previous inventions". The digital camera, personal computer, telephone, smart phone, television, etc., were all products using combinations of previous inventions. And yet they provided immense utility over their predecessors in technology. Visiting a museum of science and technology, such as the Franklin Institute in Philadelphia, reveals how many innovations evolved from a very long chain of previous innovations. For example, today's digital cameras use batteries evolved from Alessandro Volta's innovation from around the year 1800.

[CaptZoom]

No. I shoot tethered and control the camera via Capture One. I can study the image at 100% on my laptop. When not tethered, I often use the magnified view to check focus before or after taking a shot with manual focus lenses. Capture One has focus peaking and a magnified window that an assistant or digital tech could monitor while shooting a live or moving subject. I often bracket exposures because old film habits are hard to break and I am probably unnecessarily critical about getting exposure so accurate.. I shoot raw and don't use many of the features of Canon's firmware either.

 

So for most of my work, I really could have a very simple camera that only works on manual exposure and has few adjustments to the files, etc. I use some of the other features when shooting in AF mode and for special needs. I shoot much more from the hip with the Nex 6 and use a lot of the features in that camera.

 

I think ML would be useful if I shot videos with the camera. I can't say I could use the still features except I'd like to have an intervalometer... but not on the Canon but on a Nex 3N or Sony rx100 so I could fly a small camera on my quadcopter for stills. I have to go to a heavier 5R or Nex 6 to use an IR triggered remote control via my transmitter.

 

Fantastic stuff, man.

 

I hope the next iteration of the M (maybe a future firmware update for the M240) will bring tethered shooting. You already know the benefits, and I miss them on the M9. And before people get bent out of shape, tethered shooting wouldn't require any additional ports or buttons (over what the M240 already has), may be an option or two in the menu and this very easy to ignore if you don't intend to use it.

[CaptZoom]

Canon is the Honda of the motorcycle world (bare with me to the end). Honda makes superb motorcycles. Bikes that just work, and work well. They don't give you trouble, and the geometry and technology is such that it makes the bike easy to ride which involves quite a bit of savvy innovation. Yet the bikes are so refined and compliment that Honda Bikes are considered boring and lacking "soul". Never mind that Honda bikes are the platform of choice for the winners of the Isle of Mann TT. Similarly Canon's products are never accused of having soul or being exciting, yet more often than not are used in professional settings.

 

By the way, doesn't the X100s and the XE2 have both contrast detect as well as phase detect auto focus?

 

 

 

Nevertheless, all of those Canon products I listed are providing better solutions for photographers right now. That is real and practical innovation — shipped out and being used every day.

 

Intelligent evolution of existing products takes a lot of effort and is very rewarding for both manufacturers and photographers. Regardless of the patent, where is Fuji's equivalent of the 70D (with dual pixel PDAF sensor) that I can buy and use right now? Kodak was very innovative when they invented the digital camera, but where is Kodak's equivalent to the amazing 1DX right now? There isn't one. If naked innovation were king, we would all now be using the Lytro camera (mentioned by Alan above).

 

Most innovative products are "products using combinations of previous inventions". The digital camera, personal computer, telephone, smart phone, television, etc., were all products using combinations of previous inventions. And yet they provided immense utility over their predecessors in technology. Visiting a museum of science and technology, such as the Franklin Institute in Philadelphia, reveals how many innovations evolved from a very long chain of previous innovations. For example, today's digital cameras use batteries evolved from Alessandro Volta's innovation from around the year 1800.

[AlanG]

Fantastic stuff, man.

 

I hope the next iteration of the M (maybe a future firmware update for the M240) will bring tethered shooting. You already know the benefits, and I miss them on the M9. And before people get bent out of shape, tethered shooting wouldn't require any additional ports or buttons (over what the M240 already has), may be an option or two in the menu and this very easy to ignore if you don't intend to use it.

 

The way it works with the Canon is you simply plug in to the USB port and start shooting tethered. There is no setting in the camera or anything to turn on or off. (I think initially you have to make sure the USB port is set for tethering and not to send images to a printer.) You can either control the camera from Capture One - shutter, speed, f stop, ISO, live view, and shutter release... or use the regular controls on the camera.

 

Leica says this about the Multifunction grip M, "The Leica M can also be connected directly to a computer via this handgrip's integrated USB socket, allowing full remote control of the camera with the Leica Image Shuttle software package and the transfer of image files directly to the computer via a USB cable." So it looks like there is tethered support of some sort but I don't know if it compares with C1.

 

Currently Capture One only directly tethers with Phase One backs, Canon, and Nikon cameras. Even if C1 and Lightroom don't directly tether to the M you may be able to run Leica's own tethering software in parallel with Capture One or Lightroom in what is called a "Hotfolder" auto update method. (I don't want to get too involved here.) The Sony A7 would have to be used the same way.

[AlanG]

Speaking of innovation... Chrysler's car phonograph for the vinyl audio enthusiast.

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Canon is the Honda of the motorcycle world (bare with me to the end). Honda makes superb motorcycles. Bikes that just work, and work well. They don't give you trouble, and the geometry and technology is such that it makes the bike easy to ride which involves quite a bit of savvy innovation. Yet the bikes are so refined and compliment that Honda Bikes are considered boring and lacking "soul". Never mind that Honda bikes are the platform of choice for the winners of the Isle of Mann TT. Similarly Canon's products are never accused of having soul or being exciting, yet more often than not are used in professional settings.

 

By the way, doesn't the X100s and the XE2 have both contrast detect as well as phase detect auto focus?

 

I all to often see the "soul" argument as an excuse for poor innovation or even complete innabiity to keep up.

 

I accept the argument from people who are shooting M3's for full bodies of work. I tend to find it laughable from people who used M9 or are now upgrading to the M240. (Not meaning you personally Capt - just a generic observation on "soul" as a defense of "crap camera" around here)

[CheshireCat]

[...]

What some of these posts have to do with the thread's topic is a mystery to me.

 

Right, sorry, but this part of the discussion is much more interesting than the thread topic...

[ModernMan]

Hmmm... so, does anybody know if at A7/A7r has focus confirmation, as distinct from focus peaking?

[CaptZoom]

I all to often see the "soul" argument as an excuse for poor innovation or even complete innabiity to keep up.

 

I accept the argument from people who are shooting M3's for full bodies of work. I tend to find it laughable from people who used M9 or are now upgrading to the M240. (Not meaning you personally Capt - just a generic observation on "soul" as a defense of "crap camera" around here)

 

No offense taken, furthermore I think we're in agreement. I'm far more likely to comment on a photographer having soul than a machine, though I still really don't know what having soul means.

[CaptZoom]

The way it works with the Canon is you simply plug in to the USB port and start shooting tethered. There is no setting in the camera or anything to turn on or off. (I think initially you have to make sure the USB port is set for tethering and not to send images to a printer.) You can either control the camera from Capture One - shutter, speed, f stop, ISO, live view, and shutter release... or use the regular controls on the camera.

 

Leica says this about the Multifunction grip M, "The Leica M can also be connected directly to a computer via this handgrip's integrated USB socket, allowing full remote control of the camera with the Leica Image Shuttle software package and the transfer of image files directly to the computer via a USB cable." So it looks like there is tethered support of some sort but I don't know if it compares with C1.

 

Currently Capture One only directly tethers with Phase One backs, Canon, and Nikon cameras. Even if C1 and Lightroom don't directly tether to the M you may be able to run Leica's own tethering software in parallel with Capture One or Lightroom in what is called a "Hotfolder" auto update method. (I don't want to get too involved here.) The Sony A7 would have to be used the same way.

 

Once again, thank you for sharing details. I've not used C1, but did use Canon's software (DPP?) for tethered capture with the 5D2. I know about the "hot folder" method with LR, but it seems a bit tedious. Also I couldn't get it to work well with the M9 the last time I tried. Maybe it's time to give it another go. As for the M240+grip, obviously I had no idea that ability was already there. Besides the improved RF, it's another reason to purchase the M240 (for me). I'll still stick with my plan of purchasing the M11 upon announcement, unless the M9 starts misbehaving. And until then, the A7r still seems like a good purchase. We'll see what I think come December: A7r+1 weather sealed lens, or SEM 18 or 21.

 

I've got some decisions to make regarding software as well. I start a new thread regarding that, and hope you'll weigh in with your opinion.

[algrove]

I saw a video somewhere where focus confirmation was obtained as the photographer had the signal beep activated and it beeped just before each image capture. It will try to find this video again.

 

NEW SUBJECT ABOUT SONY A7R

 

If after using the a7r and assuming it works well with M & R lenses that I care about using on it AND there are no internal temperature problems which cause camera lock up I am inclined to reduce my M body inventory since Leica would not even admit to me face to face when at CS Solms that there was a complete lock up problem especially when using the EVF which required an off/on cycle or in the case of a constant red light (the worst) required battery removal and loss of the last image (August 2013).

 

Someone on the M temperature thread suggested that I was involving the wrong department at Leica with this issue, but then I submit why does Leica send product to CS Solms for fixes and repairs and also steer customers to that department for any and all problems? I believe it is CS Solms commitment to good customer relations to in turn inform whatever department would handle such matters and then inform the customer or customers having a specific problem that they have referred the issue to department X for further evaluation, testing and eventual solving of the problem. But no, I was just told they had never heard of the problem nor had the problem occur. Subject over except that after I insisted that this was a serious problem, they brought out a test camera to match my settings to their camera, but I have NEVER heard a word back about this issue.

[k-hawinkler]

Lou,

 

Those problems are very disappointing.

Does that happen with all your Ms?

[algrove]

Lou,

 

Those problems are very disappointing.

Does that happen with all your Ms?

 

Yes, every one so far, but the "It's a non-issue with me/us" comment at CS Solms is what's got me more annoyed than anything. This is combined with the feeling I had when I left the facility where I quickly realized there would be no follow up to my problems, i.e., no customer service and no further communication. On both counts, it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. I have other issues with CS Solms too, but I will defer until later to discuss these other issues.

 

Heck, I can use, say out your way in dust and wind blown sand, 3x a7r bodies for the price of one M body and not have to change lenses while out in the elements. Just can't remember, does the a7r have a sonic sensor built in since we all know the M240 does not have one due its small form factor?

[AlanG]

... Just can't remember, does the a7r have a sonic sensor built in since we all know the M240 does not have one due its small form factor?

 

From the spec sheet:

 

Anti Dust : Charge protection coating on optical filter and ultrasonic vibration mechanism

[k-hawinkler]

Lou,

 

Sorry to hear CS Solms reaction to obvious problems with your cameras.

Basically I have decided, unless Leica addresses successfully those kinds of issues, to stick with my M9.

I certainly hope the A7R will be a good FF camera for my R lenses.

And likely also for some of my M lenses.

 

If used carefully with appropriate lenses, a 36 MP Sony sensor, like the one in my D800E, can give pleasing results.

I have seen some of your stunning landscape shots. I am sure you would enjoy a 36 MP tool.

[algrove]

From the spec sheet:

 

Anti Dust : Charge protection coating on optical filter and ultrasonic vibration mechanism

 

Well now, if the a7r has similar dimensions to the M240, then why on earth cannot Leica put a ultrasonic device in the M240? Is it because they are proud to lag behind industry innovations or until we demand innovations.

[AlanG]

Well now, if the a7r has similar dimensions to the M240, then why on earth cannot Leica put a ultrasonic device in the M240? Is it because they are proud to lag behind industry innovations or until we demand innovations.

 

I think Olympus came up with this so maybe other companies have to pay a licensing fee.

 

Regarding a beep for focus confirmation with manual lenses... I can't say for sure on the A7 but the Nex 6 does not do this. When I mount a manual focus lens it turns off the AF features and I can only use focus peaking or judge the image for sharpness in normal or magnified view.

 

Maybe it would be possible with some kind of chipped adapter to trick it into thinking an AF lens is on it. You need a chipped adapter to use MF lenses on a Canon with AF confirmation. But I don't think any company makes one for Nex. It would be interesting to see how the Metabones AF adapter works on it using MF Canon TSE lenses for instance.

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Hallo,

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[algrove]

I think Olympus came up with this so maybe other companies have to pay a licensing fee.

 

I am sure it could be absorbed within the $7k price Leica charges for the M240.

[AlanG]

Once again, thank you for sharing details. I've not used C1, but did use Canon's software (DPP?) for tethered capture with the 5D2. I know about the "hot folder" method with LR, but it seems a bit tedious.

 

That is the main reason I have not placed an order for an A7r. I can wait and see if C1 gets tethered support for this camera or I can see if the hotfolder method will be acceptable to me.

 

There is one other minor issue for my workflow to make sure I can work with... The A7 remote release plugs into the USB port so it can't be used while tethering. I'd have to always fire the camera from the computer when shooting tethered, or press on the camera's shutter release to fire it. There may be a way around it because it can also plug into an adapter via a special electronic connector in the hotshoe... where my flash radio trigger goes. This adapter might be made to work somehow. Or perhaps they'll make some other adapters.

 

http://store.sony.com/off-camera-shoe-zid27-FACS1M/cat-27-catid-All-Cameras-Alpha-DSLR-Accessories;pgid=0U5YanijPshSRpwDEi94ubxG0000NsXvfEng?_t=pfm%3Dsearch%26SearchTerm%3DFA-CS1M

 

For the M it seems you have to spend $900 for the grip in order to attach a USB cord and get another flash socket. That and the Oly EVF is about 2/3rds of the price of an A7.