Guest malland Posted October 21, 2013 Share #1301 Posted October 21, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) ..but we don't have any information yet on which to comment on the A7/A7R sensors.That's bound to be the next topic for discussion. MarkP, yes, true — but what still surprises me is how many people were deciding to plunk down for this camera sight unseen. —Mitch/Paris Tristes Tropiques [WIP] Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 Hi Guest malland, Take a look here The Sony A7 thread [Merged]. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
dwbell Posted October 21, 2013 Share #1302 Posted October 21, 2013 MarkP, yes, true — but what still surprises me is how many people were deciding to plunk down for this camera sight unseen. —Mitch/Paris Tristes Tropiques [WIP] No quicker or more informative way to "see" the output. But we've had this argument before concerning the M240. I like to draw my conclusions from personal, hands on experience. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted October 21, 2013 Share #1303 Posted October 21, 2013 MarkP, yes, true — but what still surprises me is how many people were deciding to plunk down for this camera sight unseen. —Mitch/Paris Tristes Tropiques [WIP] Whatever do you mean. I've ordered one, but no one has asked me for any money. Why would they? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted October 21, 2013 Share #1304 Posted October 21, 2013 Whatever do you mean. I've ordered one, but no one has asked me for any money. Why would they? I've paid, and take receipt of the camera and 35mm lens in less than 4 weeks. Oh, and I have 30 days to decide "if for any reason I don't like the camera" to return it for a full refund. Listening Leica? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
onceuponatime Posted October 21, 2013 Share #1305 Posted October 21, 2013 still surprises me is how many people were deciding to plunk down for this camera sight unseen. Indeed. A7 performs poorly wide angle M lenses. A7 with its phase detect pretty obvious its made for dedicated A7 glass http://www.ronscheffler.com/techtalk/?p=224 A7r with non phase detect, non AA ; ie the version geared towards manual focus lenses should do better with wide angle M mount. How much better A7r does and how it holds upto digital M waits to be seen. ... Nikon FF with pentaprism Breaking: new Nikon full frame hybrid (mirrorless?) camera coming soon | Nikon Rumors To be announced within 2-3 months. F mount. FM2 like design. Now this looks more pormising for M lenses (with M > F adapter) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightSun Posted October 21, 2013 Share #1306 Posted October 21, 2013 My own concern is that I feel that the M9 is unique in color rendition and the M-Monochrom unique in B&W rendition, both of which, to my taste, have not generally been equaled by the M240. In contrast to this, most people say implicitly, or explicitly as Alan G. did, that color from digital cameras can simply be manipulated to what you want it to be, which I don't think is true by a long shot. —Mitch/Paris Tristes Tropiques [WIP] The statement that the color from digital cameras can be manipulated to anything, and possibly match a color profile of an other camera, is both true and false. True in the sense that you can get quite close, as any camera sensor can be color calibrated to yield the same colorimetric values of patches in a color chart, that ensures a natural reproduction of colors. Then, you get uniqueness with altering this natural profile. And if you apply the same transformation for two different color calibrated sensors, then you can expect that you will get a very similar look from them. However, the statement is false in the sense that still the color filters in front of the pixels can have a quite different spectral response from one sensor to the other that poses also different limits how accurately the real colors can be reproduced with them, and then of course you can't get exactly the same sort of unique color profile, either. To what extent it is so, it can be answered only by experiment. - And, yet another factor is how tonalities are reproduced, that is subject to the noise structure of the sensor (and of course influenced also by the raw conversion process that includes demosaicing and noise filtering) . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted October 21, 2013 Share #1307 Posted October 21, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) In contrast to this, most people say implicitly, or explicitly as Alan G. did, that color from digital cameras can simply be manipulated to what you want it to be, which I don't think is true by a long shot.] Feel like you're putting words into my mouth here a bit Mitch. So, here goes; "Of the following cameras; 300D, 30D, 5DII, G9, G15, X100s, M9, M240, I have been able to profile and process the colour output under various lighting conditions to be more than close enough to suit my artistic and personal sensibilities. Further, in the printed image most, if not all viewers can't tell the difference on technical merit." Now think about it. In big budget movies the guys are using monster REDs and what have you, sometimes film aswell, and then in parallel using 5D's for crash cams. Even the most discerning movie goer can't tell you which scene was shot with which camera based on colour. So I'm surprised that some think they're somehow within such a tight tolerance of visual acuity that they don't think the statement from AlanG holds at least some truth. Even more surprised to learn so when they haven't used the cameras being compared side by side. (Please read in the new found spirit of friendly, respectful internet combat!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalArts 99 Posted October 21, 2013 Share #1308 Posted October 21, 2013 fwiw, Shane was saying that there are definitely differences between devices and that "the camera is now the film stock." But I doubt he meant that one cannot merge the capture devices used together in one film and get them to look fluid and compatible with each other. And when I said, "even with post processing and skilled colorists, there will be differences coming from each capture device" that doesn't mean that those differences can't be corrected to where the viewer won't be interrupted by any differences (but only that there indeed are differences.) Shane's emphasis is that tools are absolutely different in a variety of ways and it's important to "choose the proper tools to tell the story." Cinematographers don't seem wedded to any particular brand name of tool, unlike some still photographers. Of course they usually rent the gear. And there's less of an impulse to identify themselves by what they own..... I think NightSun's response was pretty accurate. btw, the popular TV show Breaking Bad was shot on film. There were color shifts in lots of scenes despite that I'm sure the film was graded with great skill. Probably not so noticeable to most people and maybe it was even intentional (?) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmradman Posted October 21, 2013 Share #1309 Posted October 21, 2013 ... Nikon FF with pentaprism Breaking: new Nikon full frame hybrid (mirrorless?) camera coming soon | Nikon Rumors To be announced within 2-3 months. F mount. FM2 like design. Now this looks more pormising for M lenses (with M > F adapter) Interesting rumor. Small form digital SLR with high ISO 16MP D4 sensor would be welcome, but not for the Leica M. It would be great for Nikon F lenses (& R after conversion). If it's true it will be digital remake of the classic Nikon SLR with slap up mirror & optical viewfinder. Distance between flange and film/sensor plane is 46.5mm. Leica M lenses just don't work except for extreme close up. Regarding wide M lenses on Sony A7 and A7R; Ron's conclusion - if it looks bad on A7 it will look worse on A7R. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted October 21, 2013 Share #1310 Posted October 21, 2013 Alan G. did, that color from digital cameras can simply be manipulated to what you want it to be, which I don't think is true by a long shot. In practice there are differences in how the colors are presented by different cameras under typical use. But if you consider starting from very similar b/w separation images, all of the "color" is put into the final image by software profiles not by the hardware itself. If the separation images are not close to pure, then one or more are missing the data needed to get the most out of the color from the original scene. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Chen Posted October 21, 2013 Share #1311 Posted October 21, 2013 Regarding wide M lenses on Sony A7 and A7R; Ron's conclusion - if it looks bad on A7 it will look worse on A7R. please read the link if it may help http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/#channel=f1deb6c6cb02142&channel_path=%2F%3Ffb_xd_fragment%23xd_sig%3Df3fc62aafb192ac%26&origin=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sonyalpharumors.com Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted October 21, 2013 Share #1312 Posted October 21, 2013 We can't agree on this i'm afraid. The RF is the most accurate focusing device with wides, especially at slow apertures where EVFs are lost. My experience shows differently when using the R 15/2.8 on the M. See examples under Jaap's R lenses on the M. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest borge Posted October 21, 2013 Share #1313 Posted October 21, 2013 I've paid, and take receipt of the camera and 35mm lens in less than 4 weeks. Oh, and I have 30 days to decide "if for any reason I don't like the camera" to return it for a full refund. Listening Leica? Uh, why should Leica listen? It's usually the stores that set the refund/try and buy policy, not the manufacturer. Why on earth would you pay in advance? Stores that requires deposits and advance payments simply suck. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted October 21, 2013 Share #1314 Posted October 21, 2013 MarkP, yes, true — but what still surprises me is how many people were deciding to plunk down for this camera sight unseen. —Mitch/Paris Tristes Tropiques [WIP] What surprises me that many people were willing to "plunk down" three times the price of an a7R for a camera that after looking at the first shots taken was not terrific and some are still waiting for their M. To me the Sony images I have seen far outweigh the M240 images we had to endure for months. It still amazes me more that we all sit around here criticising each other for their personal choices which do not parallel own own choices. Let it go! Frankly for some time now I have enjoyed the files from my P45+ on SWC more than my M9P. Every time I print images taken nearly side by side with these two devices invariably the viewer likes the P45 image better. CCD 18mp versus CCD 39mp +a bid gain in DR. Cost? Nearly the same when purchased. Would I use the SWC on the street like I use an M? No. Would I use the M in landscape work like I use the SWC? You bet. Many factors go into choosing our gear. As mentioned it is good to hear what others use as criteria for their gear decisions.Very seldom will those decisions parallel our own. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted October 21, 2013 Share #1315 Posted October 21, 2013 Uh, why should Leica listen? It's usually the stores that set the refund/try and buy policy, not the manufacturer. Why on earth would you pay in advance? Stores that requires deposits and advance payments simply suck. The return policy and purchase is direct from Sony. I think it's obvious why Leica should listen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Jones Posted October 21, 2013 Share #1316 Posted October 21, 2013 I looked at the return policy before I placed my order and it seemed to be 7 days. It would be nice to have 30 days to decide and if it can be confirmed I would be interested to know the source. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted October 21, 2013 Share #1317 Posted October 21, 2013 I looked at the return policy before I placed my order and it seemed to be 7 days. It would be nice to have 30 days to decide and if it can be confirmed I would be interested to know the source. Bottom of the page. Sony α 7 Series Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptZoom Posted October 21, 2013 Share #1318 Posted October 21, 2013 For whatever reason it seems there's an assumption here treating the A7r as a replacement for digital Leica Ms; this assumption is generating a lot of heat. It's much more useful to think of the A7r as a adjunct to an existing Leica M system rather than a replacement. Which is the case for almost everyone in this thread whose admitted to preordering one; for the two exceptions (that I recall) to this aren't/weren't M camera users, and at least for one, the M240 is entirely unsuited for his use. Even if it turns out the A7r doesn't handle RF wide angle lenses well, there's little doubt it'll handle longer lenses just fine, as well as macro lenses. Seen as a supplement to the M system, even with the inability to use wide angles, the A7r makes a lot of sense especially so considering the low cost of entry and the additional advantages the A7r brings to the table. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
naturephoto1 Posted October 21, 2013 Share #1319 Posted October 21, 2013 Leica certainly should take notice regarding the new Sony A7 and A7r. They have already lost and threw away a lot of long time Leica R users some years ago. They are now also subject to losing a reasonable number of faithful M users that are unhappy and/or dissatisfied with the length of time in filling orders for M240 cameras and accessories along with issues with the operation and functionality of the camera. Sony is bringing a new type of FF mirrorless cameras to market in the A7 and the A7r that is going to put pressure on Leica, Canon, Nikon, and every other maker; these makers are going to have to counter or they will lose market share and sales. Rich Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted October 21, 2013 Share #1320 Posted October 21, 2013 Sony is not in competition with Leica ... they are after Canon and Nikon market-share, and have to change the game to succeed. No doubt they are after Canon and Nikon market-share, but also Fuji and Olympus market-share. The A7 is a tempting option for anyone considering the X-Pro1 (or its eventual successor) or the E-M1. The A7 is priced a little higher than those models, but offers full frame and still is a very compact camera. It looks like a strong competitor for Fuji and Olympus' top models. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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