glenerrolrd Posted September 27, 2013 Share #1 Posted September 27, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) If you have been considering a used S2 or for that matter a new S , you may want to here of my recent experience with Solms repair service . Five weeks ago I discovered that my LCD screen had been destroyed by the interaction with the Screen Patronus ..film screen protector . I had successfully used this protector on my M8 and my M9 bodies often leaving the protector on for years . The screen protector issue is a no win ..whose fault ...the crappy plastic screen cover Leica used ...the adhesive used by Screen Patronus ...or my leaving it one for a year . The repair is about $2K which is crazy expensive. There have been so many issues with this screen that my dealer recommends not using any screen protector . Good luck on your resale value . But the icing on the cake was that Leica reported a scratch on my sensor and an estimate of $6700 . I am lost at how I could get a scratch on the sensor as I ve never cleaned it ..ever . The camera has never been in for service and really has been flawless for the three years I ve owned it . I ve not seen any evidence of scratches in my photographs . My dealer appealed the repair to Solms and they refused to cover the sensor under warranty . I can have the camera back with a repair of the screen for about $2000 or I can pay the full $6700 ..hardly worth it for a camera worth about $8K wholesale . This will go up the ladder to the next level ..when the manager comes back from vacation on OCT7th . One of my friends cleaned his S2 screen right after he received it and scratched the sensor ..ended up with a $5K repair bill ...so I ve been very careful to never touch it for that reason . So in summary ......(1) don t clean your own sensor(2) don t use a screen protector and (3) don t expect Leica to stand behind their service organization and (4) don t expect much on resale . Too bad ..great camera and a huge investment having the 24,30,35,70,120 and 180 lenses . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 27, 2013 Posted September 27, 2013 Hi glenerrolrd, Take a look here Leica Service Doesn t Stand Behind the S2. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Guest malland Posted September 27, 2013 Share #2 Posted September 27, 2013 Roger, terrible story and sorry that you're having this problem. Hope that Leica will make the right decision on this when that manager comes back from vacation. A question: seems one shouldn't clean one's own sensor. But, then, this would go for the all the M Leicas as well, whose sensor cover glass probably is similar to that of the S cameras. Yet most of us clean out own sensors...so where does that leave us? —Mitch/Paris Tristes Tropiques [WIP] Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenerrolrd Posted September 27, 2013 Author Share #3 Posted September 27, 2013 Its my understanding that the S2 sensor is used to align the focusing screen by projecting a laser ....even minute scratches are picked up by the laser ...so the standard for the S2 is tighter . After my friends bad experience with cleaning his own sensor (he is no rookie and has been cleaning his own sensor for years ). nobody I know will touch their sensors on an S2 . I was the only owner out a dozen that I know without any service requirements on my S2 ....so I ve been pretty happy up to now . Its also a great camera system . But like any expensive product ....you have to watch how the product ages and the cost and company support for maintenance and repairs . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wda Posted September 27, 2013 Share #4 Posted September 27, 2013 Roger, a sorry story and you are brave to report it here. Earlier this week I visited Leica Mayfair for a session in the Akademie and the S-Studio. Although not an S owner, nor likely to be, it was interesting to hear about the support schemes Leica UK operate, bearing in mind that most clients are professional photographers. For example, a photographer was on an expensive location shoot off the Spanish coast when his S2 was damaged. Under that cover, a replacement was got to him in three hours - very impressive. But such support comes at a price and forms part of the Leica support package. In your case you sound as if you are not covered in any way. I do hope you receive better news shortly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted September 27, 2013 Share #5 Posted September 27, 2013 First if you never cleaned it, the assumption is that the scratches were on it since new or were caused by Leica's repair people. I guess if the scratch is a very straight line it could have been caused by some "particle" trapped between the shutter and the glass. That seems pretty unlikely too and I don't know if there have been many documented examples of this occurring on any camera. The fact that you never saw any marks should confirm to you that it wasn't a problem or was not there at all. Perhaps you can send Leica some very recent photos with the Exif information intact to show this. One shot against an even background at a small aperture should reveal this problem. Second, I question how easy it is to scratch a sensor by cleaning it. On many MF cameras, the backs are removable and it is routine to clean them. (Kodak and Dalsa sensors.) Some tech camera users take off their backs often to install a ground glass. The glass is also exposed when changing lenses. Thus they might need to be cleaned more than DSLRs. I can't say I recall a lot of reported issues. Also I have wet cleaned many FF cameras and I think they are pretty durable. A long time ago, I thought my cleaning caused a scratch on a 1Ds since gentle wet cleaning would not remove it. I lived with the mark sometimes showing up by retouching it and I ended up using the camera only as a backup. Eventually the camera was only worth about $650, and not useful to me, and I wanted to sell it. So I decided to try to see if it was really a scratch or just a stubborn mark. I used a wet Pec pad wrapped around a rubber spatula and vigorously rubbed it quite a number of times. After some effort it cleaned off the mark and did not scratch it. And it certainly did not break the cover glass either... despite considerable pressure. Third, as I said elsewhere, I am baffled how replacing the plastic LCD cover glass could warrant a $2000 charge. (Even by Leica.) It looks to me that it is simply secured by some kind of adhesive from the back of the camera. Minimal effort should be needed to remove the old one and attach a new one. If not, what were they thinking? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenerrolrd Posted September 27, 2013 Author Share #6 Posted September 27, 2013 Obviously I have no idea how I ended up with these problems and this level of cost . I have plenty of other cameras ...multiple M s and MONO s , Nikons etc and never had I heard of any problem with screen protectors (except sometimes getting them off) . There is no doubt that the protective cover (plastic or sapphire on the S2P) comes off but Leica insists on replacing the entire LCD module . I am sure there is a good reason but its inconsistent with an unprotected cheap plastic cover . They refuse to replace the plastic cover with the sapphire even if I pay for it . Evidently its not that hard to scratch the cover glass over the S2 sensor . One of my good friends wet cleaned his sensor right after getting the camera . He definitely scratched it as he could look at images before and after the cleaning . He is not a rookie and has wet cleaned plenty of sensors before without issue . This is why I was so careful with my S2 ..no way would I clean my sensor after hearing his experience . I was seeing no evidence of the sensor scratches in my photographs although I generally don t shoot above F11 . If these were both my fault neither would be covered by the warranty ..regardless of how much we paid . If you had an S2P you would get a loaner but the repairs would be at your cost . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 27, 2013 Share #7 Posted September 27, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) If it is not covered by guaranty it is obviously considered by Leica to be (accidentally) inflicted damage. That means it is an insurance matter. Let Leica and your insurance company battle it out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted September 28, 2013 Share #8 Posted September 28, 2013 ... There is no doubt that the protective cover (plastic or sapphire on the S2P) comes off but Leica insists on replacing the entire LCD module . I am sure there is a good reason but its inconsistent with an unprotected cheap plastic cover . They refuse to replace the plastic cover with the sapphire even if I pay for it . Evidently its not that hard to scratch the cover glass over the S2 sensor . One of my good friends wet cleaned his sensor right after getting the camera . He definitely scratched it as he could look at images before and after the cleaning . He is not a rookie and has wet cleaned plenty of sensors before without issue . This is why I was so careful with my S2 ..no way would I clean my sensor after hearing his experience... I can't think of any good reason to replace the LCD when it is only the plastic cover that is scratched. I don't see how there could be a connection between the two or why they would want to connect the two. If so, how does that speak for German engineering? Besides, why would it cost $2000 to replace an LCD and plastic cover? I believe your friend thinks he scratched his sensor and maybe he did. But that's what I thought about my 1Ds also until I realized I just had a tiny sticky smear from something. But if Leica confirmed it was scratched I guess it was. I can't see why this glass would be so susceptible to scratches compared with other sensors. Maybe his was already "scratched" when new and so was yours. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted September 28, 2013 Share #9 Posted September 28, 2013 Unfortunate story, but if Leica fails to support, then I agree with Jaap; that's why I carry comprehensive insurance, including situations arising from my own negligence (which doesn't seem the case here). Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted September 28, 2013 Share #10 Posted September 28, 2013 Frankly, in this case, Leica seems to be creating a PR nightmare for themselves. Roger is a long and loyal Leica user and a serious photographer ... a "whale" customer IMO ... one shouldn't treat such customers in this manner. While in theory everyone should be treated equally, it doesn't work that way in the real world ... some clients expect and deserve priority treatment earned over time. It seems some clerk minded, rule follower is being inflexible in this case, and perhaps the higher up manager will reverse the situation ... hope so for Roger's sake. If nothing more, a clearer communication as to why just the LCD cover can't be replaced, and exactly how serious the alleged sensor scratches are to anyone making photos ... including stopped down images. The scratch-ability of sensor covers varies on some cameras. When Hasselblad changed the sensor glass on the H3D-II to a more anti-reflective surface, it became more prone to being scratched. I scratched mine and it was a bit over $500 to replace, including shipping to and from Sweden. I've cleaned my S2P sensor a number of times because I use the camera frequently and change lenses often at weddings and for portrait sessions on location. If it is scratched, it'd be news to me ... and I do use the camera stopped down in studio for commercial table top ... and magnify the images to do minute retouching. I've dealt with a few service needs on my S2P, and to date all of them have been as one would expect from a system this expensive. Kelsey Fain, the S system product specialist at Leica USA has handled each cordially, swiftly and without issue ... including a recent failure of a CS-120/2.5 lens that has a sticking aperture. Leica is simply replacing the lens and sent a pre-paid UPS label to send back the defective lens. BTW, if one has to pay for repairs on a S2P due to user error, they are at cost to the owner but nicely discounted. I dented my top and had it replaced pretty inexpensively ... plus they had a S2P loaner on my doorstep the next morning. I also have Pro Studio insurance ... anything under $6K in value has a $500 deductible, anything over that in value is listed and had no deductible. I adjust the replacement cost of each listed item each year to reflect a realistic market value. Best of luck to you Roger! - Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 28, 2013 Share #11 Posted September 28, 2013 If the construction of the S is anything near the M (and I believe the LCD is the same or very similar) the part only comes as an entire unit and the camera will have to be stripped down to get at it from the inside. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterv Posted September 28, 2013 Share #12 Posted September 28, 2013 Roger, sorry to hear this, I hope things will eventually get sorted out. Frankly, in this case, Leica seems to be creating a PR nightmare for themselves.- Marc Indeed, as an S2P owner, these kind of stories make me nervous. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenerrolrd Posted September 28, 2013 Author Share #13 Posted September 28, 2013 If the construction of the S is anything near the M (and I believe the LCD is the same or very similar) the part only comes as an entire unit and the camera will have to be stripped down to get at it from the inside. On the M8 the cover plastic over the LCD would fall out in your hand if you heated it with a hair dryer . This was common when we tried to take the Giottos screen protectors off before reselling the bodies . My dealer at that time simply pressed the screen cover back into the M8 and it held . Yet Leica insisted that the entire LCD assembly required replacement if the cover was damaged . Three issues (1) why did Leica design a common wear item to require such an expensive repair (2) why did they use such a cheap plastic on a camera as expensive as the S2 (3) why do they refuse to allow an upgrade to the sapphire screen (now that the S2P is no longer in production ) . It was bad luck that the screen protector cover reacted with the plastic cover ...but what now . I pay $2K which is a ridiculous cost even for Leica and then have a screen that will easily scratch and no safe way to protect it . I don t really care about Leica excuses for the LCD cover ..its the way they designed it . But I sure will not be buying a back up S2 as I had planned earlier this year . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 28, 2013 Share #14 Posted September 28, 2013 Well, yes, that is quite understandable - however, if I were you I would still try to get insurance to foot the bill. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaknat Posted September 28, 2013 Share #15 Posted September 28, 2013 I've had several issues with my S2 system...two cracked sensors, a lens that arrived from the dealer DOA and another lens that failed after a few weeks of use. Each of these was handled by Leica service at no cost to me...not even shipping. It's clear to me that Roger is not receiving the same level of consideration. Roger and I are neighbors here in Florida and we shoot together frequently. I can confirm that Roger has never cleaned his sensor...he and I discussed our mutual friend's issue with his. And our Leica dealer, David Farkas, cautioned us both not to do so at the time we purchased our cameras. Sensor's don't scratch themselves...and if Roger didn't do it then the odds strongly favor the assumption that the scratch has been there all along. I am surprised and disappointed that Leica is not accepting responsibility for this issue. I hope this decision will be reversed by upper management at the company. A long standing and loyal Leica user deserves better treatment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted September 28, 2013 Share #16 Posted September 28, 2013 Putting the sensor issue to one side, it's not Leicas fault that the OP damaged his LCD is it. AFAIK the screen is part of the rear body shell on an M, so probably the same with the S. That would explain the cost. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterv Posted September 28, 2013 Share #17 Posted September 28, 2013 Putting the sensor issue to one side, it's not Leicas fault that the OP damaged his LCD is it. Well, that I'm not so sure of, James. It's not like Roger pulled an outrageous stunt with his camera, he just put a screen protector on his rear LCD. That is very common, lots and lots of photographers do this. There seems to have been a chemical reaction between the LCD screen and the protector. This is not something that happens all the time and is commonly known or well documented. Whether it is the Leica LCD or the screen protector material that caused this extraordinarry event we can not know. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenerrolrd Posted September 28, 2013 Author Share #18 Posted September 28, 2013 Putting the sensor issue to one side, it's not Leicas fault that the OP damaged his LCD is it. AFAIK the screen is part of the rear body shell on an M, so probably the same with the S. That would explain the cost. Never said it was Leica s fault that the LCD was damaged or even that the whole assembly has to be replaced .....but this looks like three questionable decisions (1) why did the design require that the whole assembly had to be replaced (2) why did Leica put a cheap plastic cover on the screen and not offer a sapphire alternative (without a $5K upgrade to the the S2P) and (3) why can t I upgrade to the sapphire screen now at my cost . But I don t need to place blame on the LCD damage ..just that I have some pretty poor alternatives to get it repaired ...$2K to get another cheap plastic cover that I can't use a screen protector on ? I can assure you I am more concerned about having to deal with this again than the $2K repair . I am looking for a solution not a handout . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted September 29, 2013 Share #19 Posted September 29, 2013 It was certainly a surprise to me that Leica used a cheap plastic screen cover when, for example, Nikon use a pretty hard glass on their D3x at a third of the price. It may not be sapphire glass but mine is still perfect after years of use without a screen protector. To use a plastic screen cover which is then not easily replaceable as a consumable item makes the situation worse. On the M8, the screen cover came with the rear casting of the camera and the two were replaced as one when I had my M8 upgraded to use sapphire - some cosmetic damage to the back disappeared. I assume this is the same with the S2 but why it also includes replacement of the LCD, I have no idea. I can't believe replacing the rear buttons would involve the same expense. They surely just can't replace the entire camera back for anything which might go wrong with it? As for the sensor scratching, it would be worth checking your most recent images for any evidence of the scratch. Leica will minutely examine the camera on the way in and it may be the scratch is so small that it doesn't affect images but if the scratch is significant and wasn't there in your recent images, it's tough to know how it got there. Sensor dust and grime is a fact of interchangeable lens camera use and if the glass will not stand up to careful cleaning, it's not fit for purpose. Dragging grit across the sensor with a sensor swab is always going to be the stuff of nightmares. Scarily expensive sensor though... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted September 29, 2013 Share #20 Posted September 29, 2013 I agree it's not a great design, nor a great choice of material for what's meant to be a pro camera. The other thing is a potential product liability claim against the manufacturer of the screen protector? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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