viramati Posted September 10, 2013 Share #1 Posted September 10, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) A question for the Techies amongst you all. Why does the M have an almost 2 second black-out time after taking a shot using the EVF/LV and when I tried out a fuji X-pro 1 today it immediately went back to showing the scene after taking a shot. So why can a camera that costs a 1/5th of the leica do it and not the M. This limitation really makes the camera useless in LV/EVF mode for any form of people/documentary work. Any explanation and possible solutions welcome Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 10, 2013 Posted September 10, 2013 Hi viramati, Take a look here EVF and black-out lag. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Rick Posted September 10, 2013 Share #2 Posted September 10, 2013 David - I do not know the answer to your question, but I agree that 2 seconds is completely unacceptable and for the most part, unusable. I am really questioning why my $7,000 camera has a mostly unusable EVF. It is a joke. Sorry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 10, 2013 Share #3 Posted September 10, 2013 I have one of the fast-start-up examples. The shutter lag is considerably less than 2 sec, about 1.5, I guess. The two values must be linked. I can live with 1.5, but agree it should be shorter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 10, 2013 Share #4 Posted September 10, 2013 A question for the Techies amongst you all.Why does the M have an almost 2 second black-out time after taking a shot using the EVF/LV and when I tried out a fuji X-pro 1 today it immediately went back to showing the scene after taking a shot. So why can a camera that costs a 1/5th of the leica do it and not the M. This limitation really makes the camera useless in LV/EVF mode for any form of people/documentary work. Any explanation and possible solutions welcome Are you sure it showed the scene and not the review? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted September 10, 2013 Share #5 Posted September 10, 2013 I have one of the fast-start-up examples. The shutter lag is considerably less than 2 sec, about 1.5, I guess. The two values must be linked. I can live with 1.5, but agree it should be shorter. What ever. 2.0 or 1.5, it is still unacceptably and unusably slow. A $7,000 camera should be much better. The EVF execution by Leica is mostly unusable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 10, 2013 Share #6 Posted September 10, 2013 I wish it were a bit shorter as well, but in my hands it works OK. I see it as an auxiliary system anyway, so I find it not unacceptable. It would be if it were the primary system. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindolfi Posted September 10, 2013 Share #7 Posted September 10, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) For fast street photography it is quite useless and frustrating, I agree. Yet I like the fast sequence you can make with the M (typ 240) in rangefinder mode and in single shot mode, timing the exposures accurately. So what I tend to do is use the EVF in hard to focus situations (dark, long lens, wide aperture) and then quickly switch off the EVF and use the rangefinder. It has helped me to make some well focussed images, well timed that would have been quite hard to make with the M9 under those conditions. And for the rest the EVF is great in slow photography and with exotic (non rangefinder coupled) lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted September 10, 2013 Share #8 Posted September 10, 2013 It has its place, but it is not a well executed piece of hardware or firmware. Buggy to say the least. But, for the occasional framing, focusing or toying around with, it is a fun novelty . But, to be clear, it is nothing state of the art or anything like the RX1 EVF which is getting close to OVF. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mosier Posted September 10, 2013 Share #9 Posted September 10, 2013 David - I do not know the answer to your question, but I agree that 2 seconds is completely unacceptable and for the most part, unusable. I am really questioning why my $7,000 camera has a mostly unusable EVF. It is a joke. Sorry. I dunno about that. I would never by a Leica for it's EVF performance. It's a rangefinder camera with the ability to use other lenses with the EVF, but that's definitely not it's main purpose. They have delivered a camera that is in my opinion as a shooter, leaps and bounds ahead of it's predecessor. Some may night like the IQ, others love it, but its a killer machine that didn't even need to have an EVF option and people would have paid 7K for it. I find it very usable in many situations. Maybe try what some others have suggested as far as technique. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
viramati Posted September 10, 2013 Author Share #10 Posted September 10, 2013 Are you sure it showed the scene and not the review? No it was definitely not showing the review as I had turned that feature off. I am using the fastest card possible in myM and I have a fast enough start up for my tastes but this fact just makes the camera useless for anything apart from landscape or static object photography when using the LV/EVF. So why if fuji can do it a camera that costs less than £1000 can't leica do it with a £5000 camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
viramati Posted September 10, 2013 Author Share #11 Posted September 10, 2013 David - I do not know the answer to your question, but I agree that 2 seconds is completely unacceptable and for the most part, unusable. I am really questioning why my $7,000 camera has a mostly unusable EVF. It is a joke. Sorry. Ok it maybe more like 1.5 seconds but the fuji does it with no real perceptible lag Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
viramati Posted September 10, 2013 Author Share #12 Posted September 10, 2013 Yes I too use the camera mostly in rangefinder mode but this feature is there just as it is in a way with the fuji which has the hybrid viewfinder so why can't it work in with the M. 1.Is the processor not able to handle it?!! after all this is a 2013 camera and the fuji is a 2012 camera 2. could it be possible to sort it with a firmware update? My main reason for starting the topic was to find some technical explanation to this and possible solution not just to whinge about it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted September 10, 2013 Share #13 Posted September 10, 2013 I dunno about that. I would never by a Leica for it's EVF performance. It's a rangefinder camera with the ability to use other lenses with the EVF, but that's definitely not it's main purpose. They have delivered a camera that is in my opinion as a shooter, leaps and bounds ahead of it's predecessor. Some may night like the IQ, others love it, but its a killer machine that didn't even need to have an EVF option and people would have paid 7K for it. I find it very usable in many situations. Maybe try what some others have suggested as far as technique. Why wouldn't you buy Leica for its EVF performance? It is a $7,000 camera and it should have at least a usable EVF. I'm sorry but I don't buy Leica for apologies. The EVF is buggy and inferior. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
viramati Posted September 10, 2013 Author Share #14 Posted September 10, 2013 Why wouldn't you buy Leica for its EVF performance? It is a $7,000 camera and it should have at least a usable EVF. I'm sorry but I don't buy Leica for apologies. The EVF is buggy and inferior. This is true. this is a premium product and as such we should expect a premium performance from the EVF even it is not the prime viewing method. After all this has been hyped as the R solution etc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 10, 2013 Share #15 Posted September 10, 2013 As the blackout is after the shot not before like the Visoflex it is only relevant in fast action shooting where you need to see the continuation immediately. In most normal shooting situations it is no more than an annoyance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
viramati Posted September 10, 2013 Author Share #16 Posted September 10, 2013 I shot a wedding over the weekend and used the Rf 99% of the time but I did on a few occasions try to use the EVF and in a fast moving situation like that it just didn't work and even for general documentary work the black-out time is just to long but this is really besides the point. I say again my point in this thread was to try and find out why this is when the fuji can do it it instantly not to get into discussions as to whether or not it is usable this way Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted September 10, 2013 Share #17 Posted September 10, 2013 As the blackout is after the shot not before like the Visoflex it is only relevant in fast action shooting where you need to see the continuation immediately. In most normal shooting situations it is no more than an annoyance. Sorry, the lag is incredibly annoying and of greater importance it is so long as to cause lost shots while waiting in the dark for a couple of seconds for the image to appear. It has nothing to do with fast action shooting. And, of course the blackout is after the shot. If, it were before the shot the camera would have to be clairvoyant. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted September 10, 2013 Share #18 Posted September 10, 2013 ... Any explanation and possible solutions welcome I have no insider knowledge but am considering it logically and I may be well off base. When the shutter release is pressed it tells the microprocessor to write all of the data that's captured on the sensor's photodiodes at that moment to the buffer (memory) and then to the SD card. Since there's quite a lot of data to write it takes a little time as can be seen by the flashing red light. While the data is being written from the sensor to the buffer it can't also be displayed on the EVF or LCD (you'll notice that the LCD is blacked out for the same time after pressing the shutter release) because that would require writing the data from the sensor to the buffer and to the EVF or LCD. Since the EVF contains no on-board memory (or not enough to save the amount of data from the sensor) and its only function is to stream the image from the sensor and overlay a bit of ancillary data such as shutter speed etc then the EVF or LCD go black because there's no incoming data for them to display. As soon as the write cycle to the buffer has finished the microprocessor streams the data from the sensor to the EVF again and the black screen is replaced with live output. Why does it black out for circa 2 seconds? Well if you look at the blinking red light it blinks for some 2 seconds, so my inference is that the sheer volume of data dumped from the sensor to the buffer takes some time to transfer. Why does it seem to take longer than other cameras with a similar MP count? Could be a number of reasons such as something to do with the 'handshake' protocol between sensor and buffer, or a slow bus speed, or error checking protocols or all of the above perhaps. As I said at the beginning, I might be way off target with these guesses so caveat emptor. Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobey bilek Posted September 10, 2013 Share #19 Posted September 10, 2013 Because Leica still must have primitive electronics like the M8 & 9. These are mechanical people, not electronic experts. Who knows why constraints they put on the outside people who made the design. I might guess they did not give them enough space or enough $ per camera to buy small IC chips. To me it matters not. All I want is a reliable full frame digital RF camera that takes my Leica lenses. The R glass is converted to Nikon mounts and the visoflex still works. I don`t do movies. You should see the D800 36 MP files with a 100 2.8 macro. You could want nothing more. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
viramati Posted September 10, 2013 Author Share #20 Posted September 10, 2013 Thanks Pete that was more what I was after Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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