Leica M240 and lux 35/1.4 really outperformed by Sony RX1R?

[macjonny1]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

RickSony doesn't sound as good though...

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Knorp]

RickSony doesn't sound as good though...

 

We'll get used to it in time ...

 

If the RX1R doesn't out perform the M(240) the A7R probably will do the job.

First let's see how wides behave.

 

Kind regards.

[MarkP]

First let's see how wides behave.

 

Kind regards.

 

Exactly!

[Rick]

Hey, you guys are having fun here without me?

 

I would like to point out that we are in good company, JonoSony pre-ordered an A7R! It's looking like a lot of the M240 guys have bought in. Isn't anybody going to be left around here to take a hard line on this Sony gizmo? I've tried best I can. What about all the blog site commenters saying the old Leica diehards are going to hate this new camera? If, its any good, we may love it more than anyone.

 

RickSony:D

[Guest malland]

RickCamOfTheMonth, my experience with the NEX-7 — I should say my non-experience with the NEX-7 — has been a strong inoculation against jumping, sight-unseen to pre-order something like the A7/A7R. When the Nex7 was announced and pre-reviewed on Ludicrous Landscape by Michael Reichmann, I thought, "can't wait for this camera to arrive, exactly what I want." At the time, I had eight M-lenses and the M6 sitting in the dry-box, and was shooting with a Ricoh GRD2 or 3. Then, when the NEX-7 came out and was tested by real photographers I decided not to get it, for obvious reasons.

 

Eventually, I got the Ricoh GXR M-Module, which I found essentially "transparent" for M-lenses, in the sense that the "fingerprint" (Erwin Puts language) of these lenses showed through to the DNG file, within the limitation on the APS-C not showing the whole lens character, but cutting off the outer area of the full-frame lens (vignetting, etc.). I thought that this "latest" camera was the "best" (shades of Reichmann), but eventually realized that I didn't like the (now antiquated) EVF and the focus peaking. I then used the camera mainly with the Elmarit-21 ASPH (pre-focused) and framed with the LCD — not that great because the balance of this contraption wasn't good. Then, I started looking more carefully at the color, and found that I could get the color rendition that I liked only with Raw Photo Processor (RPP); but that required a big effort on each frame processed — and, while,I liked the results at the time, I now see that they were almost never as good as what I can so easily achieve with my M9.

 

You were instrumental in my purchase of the M-Monochrom a year ago when, with some not-so-subtle flattery wrote that I would make the Monochrom shine (or was it vice-versa?), which pushed me over the brink and made me buy this fantastic camera — that and the fact that at the then €:$ exchange rate the price in dollars was US$1,100 cheaper ex-VAT in Paris than in New York. Some four month later, I plunked down for the M9-P, when in late-February a Paris dealer still had a new one available at the Leica promotional price that had expired on December 31 — a price only a few hundred dollars more than that of a new M-E, which is what I would otherwise have bought.

 

So, with these two fantastic (and unique) Leica cameras, as well as the NEX-7 inoculation, I am simply not interested in buying the A7R, although it's interesting how this camera will play out with M-lenses — but, from a market point of view, one should keep on mind that this camera is not really aimed at Leica but at Nikon and Canon DSLRs.

 

Ultimately, I don't think that Leica will suffer from the new Sony cameras — and may benefit from additional lens sales, although I think that Leica would have been more immune to an A7R attack had they designed the M240 on the basis of a CCD sensor rather than going for CMOS, but, then, you know what I think about the color rendition of the M240...

 

[As I re-read this post before the pressing the "Submit Reply" button, I'm trying to figure out why I've written all this at such length and why it should be of interest to anyone. But then, that is true of many posts on photography forums One tends to ramble on in the interstices of life, as one is waiting for something, or if it's 5 am and there is nothing useful that one is inclined to do...]

 

—Mitch/Paris

Tristes Tropiques [WIP]

[Photoskeptic]

Mitch, I DID buy a NEX-7 to use with Leica lenses. At first the smaller package worked for me, but then I found the EVF to be less effective than a RF and missed shots I would have easily pulled off with my digital M. It is gone and good riddance.

I must say there is something re-assuring when I pick up my M8.2 or M9P which was missing with the Sony. I think the technology freaks feel that Leica has been left behind, but they will always be chasing the latest and greatest while dedicated RF shooters are shrugging their shoulders and saying who cares?

[dwbell]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I love the not so subtle arrogance in the implication that embracing technology is somehow ONLY possible in a photographer who is poor at his/her art. That they naturally think it's the silver bullet that will make them better. That those who don't embrace technology are more noble, wiser, more artistic, sage even.

 

I note this attitude doesn't apply to M8 -> M9 -> M240 upgrades. Only other brand upgrades, naturally.

 

Bullsh1t, utter bullsh1t. Ignorant, presumptive, arrogant, self important, condescending, patronising bullsh1t.

 

Again, I'm a photographer. Not a 'Leica user', not a 'RF user' - but a photographer. My tools are cameras. Any and all cameras that get the job I want doing done.

 

If Leica had come out with this camera I would be equally all over it like a rash - and not criticised for doing so either. But they didn't, far from it.

[Guest malland]

I love the not so subtle arrogance in the implication that embracing technology is somehow ONLY possible in a photographer who is poor at his/her art. That they naturally think it's the silver bullet that will make them better. That those who don't embrace technology are more noble, wiser, more artistic, sage even.

 

I note this attitude doesn't apply to M8 -> M9 -> M240 upgrades. Only other brand upgrades, naturally.

 

Bullsh1t, utter bullsh1t. Ignorant, presumptive, arrogant, self important, condescending, patronising bullsh1t...

Not what I would call a measured or balanced response. I never said that there is anything wrong with the latest technology, but it simply isn't going to come from a tiny company with annual sales revenue of €300 million and the minuscule R&D budget that comes with that. The wonder is that Leica has been able to pull off the image quality that both the M-Monochrom and the M9/M-E have with their CCD sensors (and that I feel isn't matched by the M240). As I've written elsewhere (some would say ad nauseam), these are unique cameras despite the fact that they don't have the latest technology. If the A7R turns out to have the color rendition that the M9 has, more power to Sony because the technologic aspects are certainly going to be better, but it's image quality that trumps everything as far as I am concerned — and usability, which, basically for the M-Monichrom/M9/M240 is essentially of the same nature as film M-camereas.

 

—Mitch/Paris

Tristes Tropiques [WIP]

[dwbell]

Not what I would call a measured or balanced response.

 

Neither would I Mitch. Straight up rant would be closer.

 

(some would say ad nauseam)

Really? Who?

[Guest malland]

Neither would I Mitch. Straight up rant would be closer.

 

Really? Who?

Dunno: there's no accounting for what some people think.

 

—Mitch/Paris

[Rick]

RickCamOfTheMonth, ...

 

You were instrumental in my purchase of the M-Monochrom a year ago when, with some not-so-subtle flattery wrote that I would make the Monochrom shine (or was it vice-versa?), which pushed me over the brink and made me buy this fantastic camera

 

MitchM9Push, No, I was sincere. I also emailed Tina Manley and made sure she had it on her radar. Both of you came to mind when I saw the introduction. Tina asked a few questions and visited the forum, posted a couple times here, bought the camera and quietly disappeared again.

 

Rick

[CaptZoom]

For whatever it's worth, I'm seriously considering purchasing the A7r. It will be an addition to my kit and not a replacement for the M9.

My reasons for considering it:

-Lens adaptability including Leica M and R glass

-Weather sealing, it's rudimentary but better than none (I won't be having minor heart attacks taking the M9 into the ocean)

-Resolution. I can use it! I was commissioned to do a 8x10ft display for the second time this year and it looks like I'll asked to do more. As it is, to be sure of resolution, I had to do a composite/panorama photograph. The viewing distance is 15ft.

-Tilting screen (and hopefully tethered shooting). Two things that are immeasurably helpful for product photography.

-Macro and tele lenses. I really like using long (200-300mm) lenses for landscapes, which is something I gave up when I switched over to the M system.

Every one of these has been addressed by the M240, but I'm not ready to pay the $7000 (compared to $3300 for body + 1 sealed lens) for a camera body at this point, though I still anticipate upgrading from the M9 to the M11 in a few years time. Getting the A7r will allow me to start adding Leica R lenses to my kit (I'm assuming the M11 will build on the M240's ability to handle R glass).

 

Reason not to get the A7r: I won't be able to purchase a 21 or 18 SEM this year, which means I will have to delay working with ultra wide angle lenses (an area where I need to work on my skillset).

 

Decisions...decisions.

 

Any advice or input is welcome.

[Guest malland]

MitchM9Push, No, I was sincere. I also emailed Tina Manley and made sure she had it on her radar. Both of you came to mind when I saw the introduction. Tina asked a few questions and visited the forum, posted a couple times here, bought the camera and quietly disappeared again.

Rick, no, I know you were sincere and it did help me to decide to get the M-Monochrom. Thanks, it was a good recommendation and a good decision.

 

—Mitch/Paris

Tristes Tropiques [WIP]

[Guest malland]

For whatever it's worth, I'm seriously considering purchasing the A7r. It will be an addition to my kit and not a replacement for the M9.

My reasons for considering it:

-Lens adaptability including Leica M and R glass

-Weather sealing, it's rudimentary but better than none (I won't be having minor heart attacks taking the M9 into the ocean)

-Resolution. I can use it! I was commissioned to do a 8x10ft display for the second time this year and it looks like I'll asked to do more. As it is, to be sure of resolution, I had to do a composite/panorama photograph. The viewing distance is 15ft.

-Tilting screen (and hopefully tethered shooting). Two things that are immeasurably helpful for product photography.

-Macro and tele lenses. I really like using long (200-300mm) lenses for landscapes, which is something I gave up when I switched over to the M system.

Every one of these has been addressed by the M240, but I'm not ready to pay the $7000 (compared to $3300 for body + 1 sealed lens) for a camera body at this point, though I still anticipate upgrading from the M9 to the M11 in a few years time. Getting the A7r will allow me to start adding Leica R lenses to my kit (I'm assuming the M11 will build on the M240's ability to handle R glass).

 

Reason not to get the A7r: I won't be able to purchase a 21 or 18 SEM this year, which means I will have to delay working with ultra wide angle lenses (an area where I need to work on my skillset).

 

Decisions...decisions.

 

Any advice or input is welcome.

Okay, let me try to "talk you down."

 

Seriously though, your stated reasons to getting the A7R seem compelling with regard to holding off on a 21mm lens (I'll overlook the temporary delusion on the 18mm) — although it seems to me that a 21mm is a lot more useful than an 18mm. The thing, though, is how urgent are the needs for the A7R — and can you hold off until you can try it out or get the input from some people whose judgment you trust who have actually tried it throughly. In these matters it's always best if you can afford not be be among the earliest adaptors,

 

—Mitch/Paris

Tristes Tropiques [WIP]

[CaptZoom]

Okay, let me try to "talk you down."

 

Seriously though, your stated reasons to getting the A7R seem compelling with regard to holding off on a 21mm lens (I'll overlook the temporary delusion on the 18mm) — although it seems to me that a 21mm is a lot more useful than an 18mm. The thing, though, is how urgent are the needs for the A7R — and can you hold off until you can try it out or get the input from some people whose judgment you trust who have actually tried it throughly. In these matters it's always best if you can afford not be be among the earliest adaptors,

 

—Mitch/Paris

Tristes Tropiques [WIP]

 

I won't be pulling the trigger on either purchase until late December. Hopefully there'll be more information available about the A7r.

There's no urgency other than making the purchase before year's end. The M9 works well, and will continue to work well. The A7r would just make things a little easier, that's all.

[tobey bilek]

The R10 should have been developed. The S2, while very nice, is not affordable to anybody not a millionaire ++. I have no way of knowing if their sales targets are being met.

 

The R10 could have been a thin body for M lenses, R lenses with an adapter and a line of AF lenses.

 

The trend seems to be people are looking for small cameras. All the rebranded cameras from Japan do not impress me one whit.

[albireo_double]

I am not even paying attention to the new Sony cameras as I am busy exploring the capabilities of my new M - which, after the recent firmware update, is seriously good, in my view and for my purposes. The M9P that filled the void while I was waiting has been sold and the RX1r that I bought on an impulse will follow it very soon (I find it difficult to focus even though IQ is good). I don't need another small camera; my hands are too big even for something like an OMD which, while very good, is too "fiddly" for me (buttons too small, always press something on the touchscreen inadvertently). So no, I'll happily follow the online progress of the early adopters of the Sony but I see no reason to buy another small electronic camera. Heck, I bought a Mamiya 6 recently, my all time love. Bidding on a brand new Opemus enlarger (price about $30 right now...) and just bought a super duper enlarger lens. All prompted by my oldest son's (who's just turning 16 next month) school darkroom adventures. So, back to basics for me and Sony will not see my Euros very soon.

[lpeeples]

I've been a Nikon user forever and RX1R for about a year, and fell in love with the size of the camera and quality of its images. My issues are that its a fixed 35 and you have to use the EVF or LCD (I already lost one EVF and at $400+ a pop, not good). I can't stand composing with an LCD. Daytime its terrible. But the images are fantastic. Fast forward to this week. My M240 and Leica 35mm Lux arrived. First time Leica user. The rangefinder reminds me of my AE1/A1 days... The sharpness of the photo's is at least equal to the RX1 (if not better) and the images do pop. I get to compose through a viewfinder, use different lenses and best of all, get back to being a photographer. This wonderful camera forces me to stop and think. While you can manually adjust the RX1R, in reality, I think most people will use it on A and autofocus. Many folks like that but for me, I'm most likely going to sell my RX1R and don't think I'll miss it.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[dant]

As inferrable from DIGLLOYD (2 reviews recently published respectively entitled: [M240 vs Sony RX1: Usability and Function and M240 + 35/1.4 Summilux vs Sony RX1R (Green Machine)), Leica M240 + summilux 35/1.4 is, to no extent, better than Sony RX1R + 35 2 sonnar, in terms of both usability and final photographic results:

"(...)Leica shooters would do well to consider the value of an autofocus camera offering this quality level at a far lower cost: mystique and a red dot and generally more difficult operation are not compelling reasons to spend 4X as much for image quality that is clearly no better and in this example, clearly less good (...)" and "(...) The value proposition is simple: equal or better image quality, superior usability and reliability and all that for 1/4 the price. It bears thinking about even for diehard Leica M fans.(...)"

Are Leica M 240 owners (and I'm one of them) so blinded :rolleyes:not to recognise that they can pay less for more and to waste their money in a camera offering such a clear gap in photographic performance?

 

Sony is garbage if you need manual controls. No shutter speed dial, no focus scale for zone focus work, Many of the new school lenses have no aperture rings. Sure for the snapshot shooter they are fine. For those that like their AF to hunt and focus on the wrong target that is great. But for serious work, the Leica has NO competition. Maybe the Fuji comes close with Samyang manual lenses. But that is about it. Oh, you also have have the big Nikon dslr manual camera.

 

The only 2 things I hate about Leica is the slow buffer and the $. Other than that the Leica is perfect.

[Rick]

I've had the RX1 for over a year now and it has been a wonderful camera. The image quality is very comparable to the M240 and often the RX1 has more detail. The Sony RX1 has more dynamic range and is quite amazing at high ISO and does not produce banding at medium ISO like the M240. The color from the Sony RX1 is excellent and doesn't suffer from IR contamination like the M240 which can be seen on skin tones and, of course, dark clothing.

 

The Sony really is a fantastic PAS and does allow a fair amount of manual handling. I really don't notice the AF hunting in most lighting conditions and find it is actually fairly fast for what could be expected in a PAS.

 

The RX1 is my camera of choice for just going out or when family or friends are over. We took it to Europe last summer and it held up well, over a month of travel. And, it produced images every bit as nice as the M240 + 35Lux.

 

I'd keep it as a back-up PAS to the M240, if I were you. After the novelty of the M240 wears a little, I think you will be glad you kept the little RX1. If, Sony doesn't upgrade this line, it may be a while before we see another camera like this. It may well be a classic.