square format M9

[HaraldL]

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Humans don't view the world in square format, our field of view is a horizontal rectangle --that's why most photographs are rectangular. The reason that several medium-format cameras took square photos was because their size and/or shape made them awkward to turn for vertical shots. Cameras such as the Mamiya RB-67 had rotating backs to solve the problem. Hasselblad always sold the square format by saying you didn't have to decide how to crop until you were in the darkroom. Later they sold square as being a balanced and symmetrical way to shoot. Personally, I don't think there's a valid reason or need for a Leica-size square-format camera.

 

Larry

 

 

Nice explanation, thanks, the golden retangle does exist.

I don't think M's are the camera's for portraits, but ergonomics in a vertical position could be better. By the way I did love square format of my 503CW in various circumstances as well as for the final print. And indeed enough room for cropping.

 

Harald

[luigi bertolotti]

A short thought experiment would disprove 21x21. 24x36 is covered, right? 24x24 is included in that coverage. Therefore at least 24x24 is covered.

 

But I'm not sure where you take a 43mm diagonal and turn that into a 38mm image circle?

 

Rough design attached, but can explain why a lens that covers 24x36 surely cover a 27x27 square "neg"

image_circle.pdf

[zapp]

Leica is the inventor of 35mm (24x36mm) format.

 

So they should work on a digitalcamera with sensor in this dimensions.

 

If you like the square I would recommend Hasselblad.

Well, Hasselblad has not pushed any square format lately. Mamiya has only discontinued 6x6 cameras, Rollei is out and all full integrated digital cameras, including medium format, are rectangular format. No paper size is square, ... well just forget it at least until sensors become less expensive, lenses learn to perfom digitally, etc. If you like your camera always in the same position, rotate the back. That is what medium format people do.

[carstenw]

The diagonal which the lens can cover is sqrt(24^2 + 36^2) = 43mm (Pythagoras). The square format which fits into this diameter is given by

 

sqrt(2X^2) = 43

 

2X^2 = 43^2

 

X^2 = 43^2/2

 

X = 43/sqrt(2) = 30.4mm

 

No need for paper and pencil.

 

The question is what would happen with the lens hoods, since they are made for the 24x36 format. Presumably we would all have to buy round aftermarket hoods.

[Nocti-Luchs]

However, the correct 27x27,.....

 

Does anybody remember Pythagoras´ Theorem for triangles with right angles:

 

a² + b² = c²

 

The square we are looking for can be seen as two simmilar triangles which share the hypotenuse c. In our case c is 43 mm and a = b because we want a square format.

 

So our formula is: 2 x a² = c² or better a = squareroot (43²/2) = 30,40 mm.

 

So our "new" format for existing lenses would be 30,4 x 30,4 mm but I do not think we will see a Leica with this format.

[Nocti-Luchs]

Sorry for my post. When I wrote it Carsten had not posted yet but he was quicker.

[jaapv]

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Does anybody remember Pythagoras´ Theorem for triangles with right angles:

 

a² + b² = c²

 

The square we are looking for can be seen as two simmilar triangles which share the hypotenuse c. In our case c is 43 mm and a = b because we want a square format.

 

So our formula is: 2 x a² = c² or better a = squareroot (43²/2) = 30,40 mm.

 

So our "new" format for existing lenses would be 30,4 x 30,4 mm but I do not think we will see a Leica with this format.

 

Always nice to have a mathematician in the group:).

That would make for a 14.5 Mp sensor. But... we would have a tendency to crop to 2x3 format, creating a "standard" 27x18 sensor again...

[freusen]

The square format with the existing lenses can be as much as 30.6x30.6mm.

 

The 24.0x36.0mm rectangular format is about 864.0mm2.

The 30.6x30.6mm square format is about 936.0mm2, which is 108.3% of the area of the 24.0x36.0mm format.

The horizontal angle of view of the 30.6x30.6mm square format is 85% of the angle of view of the 24.0x36.0mm format,

which is a crop-factor of about 1.18. The diagonal angle of view is the same on both formats!

 

image: square format for Leica-M:

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[freecitizen]

If the sensor size was 27mm square or larger I would buy one immediately.

[jaapv]

I have a strong suspicion the R10 sensor will be like this, based on sounds emanating from Solms.

[freusen]

Why shouldn’t Leica take it one step further and goes for a ROUND sensor?

 

The round format with existing lenses can be as much as a 43.3mm diameter, but let’s make the new sensor with a 40.0mm diameter to keep things simple, which is a crop factor of 1.08.

 

Within this round sensor we can define different picture formats:

1. 28.0x28.0mm square format;

2. 22.0x33.0mm rectangular format;

3. 33.0x22.0mm rectangular format;

4. 16.0x36.0mm panoramic format.

 

So please Leica take this free advise seriously and make everybody happy within a year or two!

 

Image: round sensor for new digital Leica-M

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[Riley]

a sensor twice the size doesn't cost twice as much

more like 20x as much

30.4mm sq is considerably large and would be VERY expensive and entirely custom built

 

microlenses would no longer hold it off as the angles are even steeper

so back too soft edges and it would have even more light fall off problems

 

using R lenses would improve the situation considerably

but the mirror would be large enough to swat flies

 

FFR

why not an FF R lens rangefinder

full IRcut sensor, no AA filter, no miror

[HaraldL]

Why shouldn’t Leica take it one step further and goes for a ROUND sensor?

 

The round format with existing lenses can be as much as a 43.3mm diameter, but let’s make the new sensor with a 40.0mm diameter to keep things simple, which is a crop factor of 1.08.

 

Within this round sensor we can define different picture formats:

1. 28.0x28.0mm square format;

2. 22.0x33.0mm rectangular format;

3. 33.0x22.0mm rectangular format;

4. 16.0x36.0mm panoramic format.

 

So please Leica take this free advise seriously and make everybody happy within a year or two!

 

Image: round sensor for new digital Leica-M

 

Very nice option! Of course they have to make some additional slight adjustment in the viewfinder... Cropping in PS is far more (too) easy.

[hankg]

It makes no sense for the M. There is a 16MP square sensor used in the medium format market but it's to big (36x36). Maybe for the R if they where planning on a new body design . But the reason I think medium format digital has abandoned the square is because throwing away pixels is expensive with the cost of chips today. Better to have a rectangle and crop as little as possible so you can maximize the resolution you paid dearly for. If big chips where cheap it would make sense but they are not.

[photoworkplace]

Just came across this

I have been modifying all of my film and digital cameras for 20 years now to shoot sq

That is everything from half frame to 8X10 (SLR and all my Leica Ms)

I find that my rectangle stuff got to chaotic, spiraling off the edges, the sq. created more formality

Not to mention the benefits of keeping the camera in one orientation

Even now with my Canons I make a custom grip, hold the camera vertically and view through my right eye

That way I keep my left eye open and my face is not hidden behind this huge hunk of metal

 

Joseph DeRuvo Jr.

The Photographers Workplace

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[BillBrittain]

I would buy the round sensor immediately. An M rangefinder, not an SLR. possibly framelines could be electronically generated in the viewfinder and customized to whatever aspect ratio the photographer desires to see.

 

RAW files would be output as squares, with black filling in the non-pixeled areas, and could be cropped as part of the processing to any shape.

 

As RAW shooting trickles down into the advanced/prosumer market, this kind of option would be accepted and appreciated by many.

 

Look, it's great Leica was a pioneer and put 35mm on the map, but that was early in the last century. Building a camera as described would display their continuing innovation whilst retaining the usage of their famous optics. A killer combination.

 

Why shouldn’t Leica take it one step further and goes for a ROUND sensor?

 

The round format with existing lenses can be as much as a 43.3mm diameter, but let’s make the new sensor with a 40.0mm diameter to keep things simple, which is a crop factor of 1.08.

 

Within this round sensor we can define different picture formats:

1. 28.0x28.0mm square format;

2. 22.0x33.0mm rectangular format;

3. 33.0x22.0mm rectangular format;

4. 16.0x36.0mm panoramic format.

 

So please Leica take this free advise seriously and make everybody happy within a year or two!

 

Image: round sensor for new digital Leica-M

[HaraldL]

I would buy the round sensor immediately. An M rangefinder, not an SLR. possibly framelines could be electronically generated in the viewfinder and customized to whatever aspect ratio the photographer desires to see.

 

RAW files would be output as squares, with black filling in the non-pixeled areas, and could be cropped as part of the processing to any shape.

 

As RAW shooting trickles down into the advanced/prosumer market, this kind of option would be accepted and appreciated by many.

 

Look, it's great Leica was a pioneer and put 35mm on the map, but that was early in the last century. Building a camera as described would display their continuing innovation whilst retaining the usage of their famous optics. A killer combination.

 

As you may have understood I would be very happy with it as well. As this forum is probably the cheapest way Leica can do it's marketing research I'm looking forward to their innovations. But most Leica photographers seem to be quite conservative. Would Leica dare to do something really different? Or are they fine-tuning on and on and on, like Porsche?

[HaraldL]

It makes no sense for the M. There is a 16MP square sensor used in the medium format market but it's to big (36x36). Maybe for the R if they where planning on a new body design . But the reason I think medium format digital has abandoned the square is because throwing away pixels is expensive with the cost of chips today. Better to have a rectangle and crop as little as possible so you can maximize the resolution you paid dearly for. If big chips where cheap it would make sense but they are not.

 

How much for the first medium format digital backs, for how many pixels? One of the 'advantages' of chips is that they become cheaper in time, wait and see.

 

Harald

[Philinflash]

Why shouldn’t Leica take it one step further and goes for a ROUND sensor?

 

Nice out-of-the-box thinking! But it might be too much for "square" traditionalists who are trying to emulate Robert Capa, altough he would probably buy one and so would I. However, that would be where the similarity ended.

 

Philip Kozloff

New York

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[geoff]

OK, I've read discussions like this before, either for a M9 or R10.

 

Here's the glitch. It won't work for the R series without widening the body depth to allow for the horizontal positioning of the taller required mirror unless you're talking about a 24mm x 24mm square area. Additionally, the lens would be mounted farther away from the sensor.

 

On a M camera, the body depth would not need to be affected but the rangefinder would need to be taller in size or the viewfinder view smaller.